Has anybody else heard of this?

[Velvet]

My lawyer friend in Vancouver forwarded this to me today. I've forwarded it to some local media, I wonder if this is true? Hope not.

Dear Friends,

Today, on April 21st 2002, a group of my closest friends and myself, along with people from all over the country, drove down to Ottawa to take

part of the Jewish Rally organized by the Canadian Jewish Congress. Once the rally was over at around 1pm, we decided to get some lunch before taking the road, we proceeded to Rideau Center a few blocks away from Parliament Hill.

I was carrying an Israeli flag, as were a few of my friends. We were walking in the mall when two security guards approached me. Here's what happened: - "Sir, get rid of your flag immediately", I replied - "Is there a problem, what's wrong with it?" - "You heard me, don't ask any questions, remove your flag now or else" - "Can you please explain to me what the issue is?"

At that point, he grabbed the flag from my hands and pushed me away. I then proceeded to take my camera out so I can take a picture of him destroying my flag. That's when things got out of hand and they went totally ballistic. He pushed me on the wall, and place handcuffs on me and told me I was under arrest. Now please remember that these are SECURITY guards and NOT the police and/or law enforcement. Without further explanation they started walking me away from my group of friends to take me to their office.

Luckily, my friend David, demanded my release and proper explanations while he was taking snapshots of the situation. They demanded the camera from him so he gave it to someone else who proceeded to run from the mall in order to keep the film. He was also placed "under arrest". They brought us to their offices and became extremely verbally abusive at a point where I thought my safety was compromised. They called us derogatory names and made racist comments about Jews and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The police have still not been called and I still wasn't told what was the reason of this detainment and verbal and physical assault. They searched me, asked me if I had any weapons, treated me like a petty criminal. They started reading my rights at which point I asked to contact my lawyer. They refused to grant me that right. My friends waiting for us were smart enough to call the police which showed up about 20 minutes later while they kept us handcuffed in holding cells.

The police officers quickly removed the handcuffs, explained to us that they were going to let us go with no charges since they believe that we did nothing and that we were simply being patriotic to our beliefs. The mall security wanted to take pictures for "their records". I advised the officer that under Ontario law, such thing is prohibited without my consent and that only law enforcement agents can take such pictures to keep their own records. The police agreed and forbid the mall security to do so. We were then advised that we cannot enter the mall for a period of 12 months because of our actions.

I call on the community to denounce this atrocity and boycott this mall until they take the appropriate actions. I decided to press charges

for assault and illegal detainment.

[h]

there was a similar email chain a few months ago about a girl with a sign coming back from a protest who stopped to eat at Blooms and had her sign under the table. They said that she was also treated extremely badly and banned for 12 mo. i dont know if it's just similar and true or similar and an urban myth...

i can totally see it happening though...

[Booche]

I read it in the paper, there was also a picture of him being taken away.

[Harpua]

That sounds like lawsuit-city.

[CharlieDon'tSurf]

..not to undermine the seriousnees of the story but, boycotting a mall?!?! Seems something like this incident deserves a little more action than not hanging out in the food court at the Rideau Centre!

[treyter]

i say we Merry Scankster that security company...

[Velvet]

So it was already in the paper? Good.

[Giggles]

I AM NOT CONDONING THE ACTIONS OF THE SECURITY GUARDS, THEIR IDIOTS..BUT...there is some crazy shit happenning right now in the world involving the middle East (i.e- suicide bombers and just plain war, violence in the middle East), perhaps (if the mall was The Rideau Centre) for OUR saftey the security was asked to watch out for things that were odd, maybe one being people parading around w/ an Israeli flag, because of their closness to the US embassy...Ya never know. There are some FUGED UP POEPLE OUT THERE!!!

Giggles

*again, I think the security gaurds in this case were idiots...likely couldn't make the police unit so they went with being a security guard and playing "bum's and dinkies" at night time..

[Asparagus]

The previous time this happened was the time that h is referring to. It had to do with the ongoing protest of the G20 economic community meetings in Ottawa. The basis is that the rideau centre is privately owned and the owners therefore have the right to allow protesters/demontrators on their property or not. Makes sense to me, legally speaking. We, as the public, seem to be easily fooled into thinking that we can say whatever we want, whenever we want. Not true on private property. This is the problem with private property masquerading as public space. We can sit there and be targets of marketing campaigns and other more or less useless activities, but we can only cry foul from the sidewalk bordering their property. Sidewalks, luckily, are still for the most part public.

All of that aside, I think the security at the said location are just a bunch of assholes. A friend of mine was once caught smoking a joint on top of the rideau centre and was then treated, according to him, quite badly, and expelled from the mall for a period of 12 months. He worked in the mall at the time. What a fiasco. They finally let him back in the mall after a couple weeks of persistence.

[treyter]

i have a really hard time believing that any organized Israli groups would be interested in bombing a US embassy.

the US is, and has been for quite some time, the major backer of Israli interests. where'd they get all them weapons anyhow?

[h]

essh, let that be a lesson to one and all about doing illegal stuff at your place of work...

just as a point of interest, mall parkinglot are also private property so you can run those stop signs and speed all you want in them...

[AD]

treyter:

where do you think Osama, Hussein, and countless other groups get their weapons as well? The good ol' USA.

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[SaggyBalls]

not to be insensitive and prejudiced, but that dude now knows what it's like to be a palestinian in the west bank.

if i were forced off my land because the UN declared my neighbourhood a new country and i was forced off my land and was persecuted because of my beliefs i'd be killing people too. we're all peace loving people but the palestinians have been ignored in the western media because they don't have the money or power to have a proper army to defend themselves. they're doing all they can to fight for themselves and nobody ever says anyhting about that in the media. i dont' think it's right in canada but you've got to understand both sides of the story...it's not jewish land and the israeli army has been pushing around muslims for years. it's all over an eons-old fight for bravado and the rightful ownership of land. it's retarded but it's not gonna end any time soon.

i didn't mean to offend anyone here but it's a perspective that fewe people really take into account.

[CharlieDon'tSurf]

I think yer more than right Beats... its something that any born and bred Canadian (aside from those of aboriginal descent) would have little understanding of. Opression takes many forms and the UN has never been and will never be the best judge of it... take East Timor for example.

[AD]

Kind of ironic how we sit and discuss this light-heartedly at our personal computers, fresh off our nice and easy day at work or school, riding public transit without thinking twice, buying groceries, drinking coffee, expressing dissent...

[treyter]

i agree with you a bit canned beats, and u AD--i know the states feed those weapons to everyone...they just do it more openly to isreal...they hit the muslum countries with the weapons becasue they need the oil right? i dunno. very complicated stuff...

but i'll say this...it sucks that the palestinians got the boot (if u ar a palestinian)...i got a haircut from a palestinian a while back (like 3 months) who said he had to leave becasue they were being treated less than a dog by the israeli's...i believe it too.

now thing is why doesn't the other muslim countries shave off a bit of their land and give it to the palestinians, their so called "allies"??? they could easily.

everyone over there (muslums) just hates israel/jews and wants them dead. that's all. i mean who had the land a thousand years ago??? isreal...birthplace of christ and all that.

either way, it all sucks and i wish there was a solution, but i don't see one without a lot of death or loss of pride.

[AD]

I hope you're not basing your whole belief system about this conflict on what your barber of 3 months ago told you... And Israel didn't have the land a thousand years ago; Israel has only existed for 55 years.

Just out of curiosity, where do you stand on this whole 'War on Terrorism' in Afghanistan?

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[CharlieDon'tSurf]

Buying groceries can be one of the most useful ways to express dissent ...and don't get me going about riding public transit ...

I don't know about most others here, but I'm so far removed from anything remotely close to 'a day in the life of a Palestinian on the Gaza Strip' that my two cents worth means diddly...

[zimmerman pt 2]

treyter,

there's a good reason why the palestinian's so called arab/muslim allies/neighbors haven't been sharing the land with them: so that claustraphobic conflicts like this would erupt on Israeli land.

[treyter]

AD: i am certaintly not basing my beliefs on a half hour conversation with a palestinian barber bud. for u to presume so is assinine. if you wanted to sit an talk with me about this face to face i would be happy to AD. initially i was responding to giggles idea that the security guards may have been worried about israeli's bombing the US embassy, which i think is innacurate.

i certaintly do not claim to know all the details concernign the israeli/palestinian problem at all. anyone that does would be a fool. i base my beliefs on reading the newspapers and conversations with people who's opinions i respect.

i really have no idea who should be in control of that land or not. it is my opinion that the viloence and continuing "terrorist" tactics the palestinians have been using to regain the land in which they think is theirs is really just the only thing they think they can do to get their point across. however i do not agree with it. making that place unlivable is what is happening IMO.

AD, do you think they should just continue on in the way they have been? has it been getting them anywhere? the only thing they've been doing IMO is getting Israel angry (which is not a good idea becasue they're pretty f'n tough), and trying to start a war between all muslums and israel...which could easily erupt into a much bigger conflict worldwide.

what do you think AD? i'm curious to see your stance?

i think maybe the palestinians should be realistic, and ask for some of their muslum allies for some land. israel is obviously not going to give up that land without a fight. they are much too powerful for the palestinians (and possibly anyone else in that area) to contend with. stop the violence before it get even more out of hand.

and isreal may only be 50 years old (technically), but it's really about the people my friend, and the Jews have been there for a long long time. jeruselam, bethleham...

as far as afganistan goes...why don't u hit me with your stance?? i seem to be the only one the dishing out any opinions here.

sitting back and saying a few words to try to egg somone on is easy. saying what you really think is much tougher. give it a shot.

[jaybone]

Man, this issue puts knots in my stomach. When Israel was created after WWII it seemed like an idea that would never work. Put a Jewish state smack in the middle of Arab territory, which is considered one of the most sacred pieces of real estate by 3 major religions. If the U.S. hadn't backed Israel, their neighbours would have killed them off years ago. Hard liners on both sides have just refused to back down and eventually something has got to give. Israel needs to get out of the West Bank but on the other side of the coin...man, state sponsored terrorism makes for a real nervous and millitaristic Israel. If there were suicide bombings every other day in the U.S. or even Canada you could be damn sure our millitary would be on the offensive. I really don't know where to stand on the issue cuz both sides have a point and both sides are also being totally unflexible. Scary shit. A forced truce and forced compromise (meaning UN(read us))may well be the only solution, and not a good one at that. The mid-east has been a powder-keg that is going to blow sooner or later...the question, in terms of world securtiy,is sooner better then later?

just my confused 2 cents.

[AD]

Treyter: I'm not trying to egg anyone on or be controversial or anything. I'm not even playing devil's advocate here. There was no ill-will in any of my posts. I'd sit down and talk with you gladly, but (un)fortunately I'm off to Spain for a month on Saturday. RELAX. TAKE A DEEP BREATH.

Some facts for everyone:

Israel is surrounded by 24 Arab nations.

These 24 nations occupy 640 times the area that Israel does.

Arabs outnumber Jews in the Middle East 50 to 1.

My stance? For now, I am leaning towards supporting Israel. (Unless that UN probe into Jenin finds war crimes committed by Israeli troops). Even then, I'll still agree with Israeli policy, if not actions.

My stance on Afghanistan? I think the whole campaign is laughable. Does Bush really expect to catch anyone? Are the States really doing any good by bombing and hunting down religious zealots on the other side of the world? Part of the Gulf War was testing out brand new American weapons. Ten years later... Hmmmm.... How many new weapons do they have now that haven't been tried on live targets? Perhaps that's my conspiracy theory alter-ego shining through.

Arg. Lots of time spent on this. Back to packing for Spain!

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[Davey Boy 2.0]

What Day Is It?

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

From NY Times

JERUSALEM — President Bush recently lamented that in the Middle East "the future is dying." Being out here now, I can confirm that. There is only one way to reclaim that future: It is for America to get Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah, Ariel Sharon and Yasir Arafat to face up to what each wants to ignore. Abdullah wants to ignore yesterday, Sharon wants to ignore tomorrow, and Arafat wants to ignore today.

The Saudi leader will be meeting Mr. Bush tomorrow and will no doubt want to focus on one thing — the Arab-Israeli conflict and the Saudi peace initiative. I'm glad the crown prince has put forward a peace plan. It can only help create possibilities, and those who say it is only p.r. don't know what they're talking about.

But as Americans we still have some "yesterday" business to clear up with him: namely, who were those 15 Saudi hijackers on Sept. 11 and what were the forces inside Saudi Arabia that produced them? The F.B.I. still doesn't know. Saudi Arabia refuses to take any responsibility for its citizens who participated in Sept. 11. A society that won't acknowledge responsibility isn't likely to engage in self-correction — in terms of how it educates its youth and what opportunities it offers them for the future.

Think about two recent stories. The Times Education Life supplement just reported that the best-selling book in China for the past 16 months is a book, in Chinese, about how to get your teenager into Harvard, titled "Harvard Girl Yiting Liu." In this book a Chinese mother shares her "scientifically proven methods" for getting her daughter into Harvard. It has sold more than 1.1 million copies and triggered 15 copycats for how to get into Columbia, Oxford or Cambridge. In the same week it was reported that the normally intelligent Saudi ambassador in London, Ghazi Algosaibi, had published a poem in Al-Hayat in praise of the 18-year-old Palestinian girl who blew herself up in an Israeli supermarket, saying to her, "You died to honor God's word."

A society that makes a best seller about how to get its teenagers into Harvard will eventually build Harvards of its own. But leaders who glorify a teenager who committed suicide in a supermarket full of civilians will never build a country that can live on anything other than oil; their priorities will be too messed up. Israel did not "honor" God in Jenin, and neither do suicide bombers.

As for Mr. Sharon, he only wants to talk about how to crush Palestinian suicide terrorism today, but he has no apparent plans for tomorrow. I find a split mood here: After months of Israelis swallowing suicide bombs and wondering whether Jews would be able to go on living here, Israel's recent military operation has buoyed them with the feeling that they can still defend themselves. But there is also a deep depression here, because there is also a sense, as many Israelis have commented to me, that their leader has no plan, no road map, beyond his iron fist.

Many Israelis feel Mr. Sharon is so paralyzed by his obsession with eliminating Mr. Arafat, by his commitment to colonial settlements and by his fear that any Israeli concession now would be interpreted as victory for the other side that he can't produce what most Israelis want: a practical, non-ideological solution, one that says, "Let's pull back to this line, abandon these settlements and engage the Palestinians with this proposal, because that is what will preserve our Jewish democracy, and forget about the other stuff."

As for Mr. Arafat, he only wants to talk about yesterday, and what the Palestinians have suffered — or about tomorrow, how one day the Palestinian flag will fly over Jerusalem. But Mr. Arafat has no plans for today, no plans for preparing his people for a historic compromise, no plans for building institutions, and no diplomatic strategy for how to cash in this intifada for a peace deal with Israel. Someone should tell the European fools who now rush to protect Mr. Arafat that when this intifada started it was directed partly at his corrupt leadership, but he redirected it all onto Israel — with Mr. Sharon's help — decimating both the Palestinian economy and the very Israeli peace camp that is the only force that can deliver Palestinians a state.

Bill Clinton said at Camp David, "We may not succeed but we're sure going to get caught trying." Mr. Bush cannot remake Abdullah, Sharon or Arafat, but he can get caught trying, by speaking the truth to them and their societies — where there are still many, many people desperate to save the future from leaders who can't figure out what day it is.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

The preceding article is a bit simplistic, but it kinda helps clarify some American taes on shit...

I dunno I think there's a lot morre under the surface that we'll never see

[Akron]

On the issue of suicide bombers: http://www.adbusters.org/home/israel/ ... you decide.