maybe a silly question?

[guigsy]

how the fuck does humiliation and torture to iraqi's, by americans, come in 2nd place on the sickness scale to a beheading of an american by an iraqi? how is it the americans get passed off as misunderstood, and misguided, undertrained, or "just following orders", but the iraqi's are the most malicious and hurtful people to ever walk the face of the earth?

man, i dunno why im posting this.... we're in a bad spot, man. the world is in a bad spot. fuck.

[Stapes]

[color:"purple"] It's simple, our god is stronger than their god.

Or maybe just our media.

[guigsy]

oh, right, god...

[Stapes]

[color:"purple"] Everybody knows one american life is worth at least 100 Iraqi lives.

I'm loving the purple.

Let me ask you this question... Why are the Americans even in Iraq in the first place?

[paisley]

Let me ask you this question... Why are the Americans even in Iraq in the first place?

[color:"purple"]Saddam Hussien was going to take over America with his weapons of mass destruction... thank god (pick one) we averted that

I'm getting a morbid enjoyment watching CNN squirm over the fact that the parents (deepest sympathies to them, terrible) of Nick Berg keep blaming Bush and his republican cronies for their son's death. The far right commentator keeps saying "and they don't have any blame for the masked insurgents who held the knife?" and the family keeps saying he likely would've been home safe before the escalation of trouble if he wasn't held without any charge for 2 weeks by US appointed Iraqi forces (the family actually contends that he was being held by American forces, which is what he wrote home in his e-mails when he was released)

Nick Berg was a Bush supporter. His father is not. He's also anti-war.

"I think a lot of people are fed up with the lack of civil rights this thing has caused," he said. "I don't think this administration is committed to democracy."

[Jared]

its sickening, i mean who does the us get off doing what ever they want? and where is it going to end? are they just going to take over any place they don't like? i mean they already did it once. so what to keep them from deciding the need more space and taking over canada? this whole thing has me very stressed out,

[paisley]

evil times, closest thing we've seen to Hitler since Hitler

according to the Dallas Morning News the new pics and videos that congress were shown include (amongst other things):

Military dogs snarling at cowering prisoners.

Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts.

Sex acts between male and female U.S. soldiers and forced homosexual acts between prisoners.

A prisoner forced to violate himself with an object.

A man beating himself against a wall as though to knock himself unconscious.

[c-towns]

ummmmmmm......Go Flames Go.

[Stapes]

evil times, closest thing we've seen to Hitler since Hitler

Check this out ===> Camp X-ray(WARNING not for the weak of heart)

I'd say that You can't get much more evil than the Bush administration.

[shainhouse]

It's gotten beyond ridiculous. The top defense secretary, RUMSFIELD is surprised by the acts of his cronies and isn't fired, not even reprimanded.

The US scares me right now. We're one red button push away from seeing Jerry play.

[Stapes]

http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo/

This was months ago.

Spooky stuff.

[paisley]

have a feeling people will be protesting worldwide again as they did before the Iraq war but this time to protest Bush getting re-elected.

I'll definately be in the streets again.

[Jared]

i'll join you! does anyone know what happened to sadam,? they sure stoped talking about that really quick? did the us kill him already on pay per veiw? or are they just still torturing him? did did someone step in and take him, so he can be fairly tried?

[Stapes]

Saddam hasn't finished telling them where he hid the Iraqi airforce.

[TimmyB]

One question for you Sheikyerbouti, would you rather be humiliated or beheaded? Me personally I would take the former rather then the latter.

Now I'm not defending the actions of the American soldiers here whatsoever. It is just that I am finding this American bashing is becoming a bit ridiculus.

I do not know what "sickness scale" you are speaking of, but to me being humiliated and/or tortured would be preferred by all to being killed.

I am assuming that your point is that American media is now covering the beheading more to the footage of Americans torturing prisoners. Why are any of us surprised by this?

Once again I'm not defending the actions of American soldiers, but I assume that the majority of us on this message board are relatively informed and not naive. Humiliation and torture tactics are and have been used by all armies through out recorded history. This is nothing new and not just something that occurs under the command of the American armed forces. British, French, German, even Canadian (does anybody remember Somalia?) armed forces have been involved in much worse than what the Americans have just been caught doing, during recent events.

What the American soldiers did was wrong, period. Am I against the United States invading Iraq, yes. Do I want America out of Iraq, yes. Do I think I am better than Americans, no. Do I think that it is the few rather than the many in America that make it a danger to the stability of the world, yes. Are we going to influence America to change by putting them down and feeling superior to them, I do not think so.

[dimafleck: the living legend.]

i think the differense is that

Nick Berg was an innocent man, brutally murdered and humiliated.

The POWs, although their torture and humilation are awful, are still POWs. They are soldiers that were out killing or trying to kill american soldiers.

[guigsy]

hey timmy, sorry to stir your pot, brother. if i only i'd known you'd get so upset....

but to answer your question, i would probably choose the latter over the former.

so? what does that mean in the grand scheme of things? it means that you and i are different. than, isnt it possible that out of a few billion people someone else might think differently than you?

so, neither of us are right or wrong. enough with the holier-than-thou bullshit.

[Stapes]

Humiliation and torture tactics are and have been used by all armies through out recorded history.

You are absoulutly right and that is why we have the Genieva Convention.

Which is why we should be more concerned with the mass torture of POW's (plus civilians and children in Guantinimo Bay) than the beheading of a single civilian. Those masked guys beheaded that poor bastard in direct retaliation to the torture films. Which the administration hasn't even appologied for. I find it frightning and insulting that the Bush administration forces other countrys to adhear to "the rules" but they only apply when they are conveinient.

I don't have a problem with Americans or America in general nor do I feel that I'm superior to them. My problem is with the extent of that the "rather few" are spinning the situation and events in the America. And how it's affect the world I live on.

I feel like I've been watching this train wreck for 3 or four years now and it just keeps getting worse.

[Raul Duke]

Red Cross reports that up to 90% of Iraqi detainees are being arrested *by mistake*

[Jared]

no ne answered my question! does any one have any ideas?

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

[color:"green"] war brings out the worst in everyone....

and this war is a result of greed. please Lord, let the democrats win the next election!

[AdamH]

The greed/oil argument is holding less...well...water with me these days compared to this being about foolish pride. I was flipping through Bob Woodwards book the other day and even the President acknowledges that when his father was in power, he "hoped and prayed" that the Gulf War would bring down the "tyrant". I think that was a seed planted long ago and it came to fruition with the Trade Center bombings. And who better than a repeat secretary of defense to make this case on your behalf?

At one point I felt pretty good about Colin Powell. He was dead-set against going to war without a concrete action plan and ESPECIALLY an exit strategy. I think he could be the one republican I would respect as a president.

[Schwa.]

I have so much to say on this issue i don't know where to start. I'll start by saying look at the facts. Instead of all of the bad he has done, think of the good.........there is none. None at all. He provided funding to a few bleeding heart causes ( all good by the way ) to make all of those campaign fund raising trips worthwhile (and profitable) but other than the moving of money he has done bubkiss. No American morale to speak of. No humaitarian action whatsoever. yada yada yada......

ya get my point.

Favourite 'Fact': •I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.

[paisley]

The POWs, although their torture and humilation are awful, are still POWs. They are soldiers that were out killing or trying to kill american soldiers.

actually, in the early stages of the war, a lot of people held had their villages stormed and American troops went house to house looking for anyone of intelligence value... men and women regardless of military involvement, if they thought you knew something about WMD, Iraqi resistence, terrorist organizations you were imprisoned... largely whole villages were taken in and held until they were cleared... they changed tactics and started being more picky when they realised they were turning all of Iraq against them... just saying that most of the women and many of the men in the prisons had/have nothing to do with actively being a soldier, therefore not your usual POWs

as far as why are people more upset about the tortured detainees than the one beheaded American I think thats because of Americas role in the situation... they're going to war because Saddam has weapons of mass destruction he's going to use on us, ok we have Saddam but we're still torturing civilians who's country we've invaded and taken over... if Canada was being controlled by armed Americans in every city who had killed thousands of us who still routinely killed civilians in battles (which wouldn't happen if they weren't invading us) and who were torturing Canadians in their prisons I could see upset Canadians acting out in some form of brutal and desperate retaliation, its kind of common sense something like that will happen under such circumstances

[Velvet]

911 was retaliation.

Bombing Iraq was retaliation.

Torturing prisoners was retaliation.

Beheading was retailiation.

The future looks like one more retaliation after another. I hope those responsible at least feel bad about it.

This whole thing keeps reminding me of a picture I saw at the War Crimes Museum in Saigon. Three American soldiers laughing and posing with a Vietnamese head on a stake. I wondered then just how fucked up one's daily life had to get before he could stand in front of a severed human head and laugh. I've seen a severed head before, and even in a clinical medical environment, it's still not that funny.