Taping Info

[c-towns]

I'm thinking about getting into taping out here in the west, I was just wondering where I should start, what kind of different units are out there, and what is the approximate price value, also what is the level of difficulty for the different units, I think its time we got some more western shows availible to the skanks.

Thanks in advance

peaceinjam.jamesd.

[bradm]

I started taping in September, so here's some experience from a beginner.

First, what's your budget? You can spend anywhere from nothing (e.g., if you have an old ghetto blaster with built-in mics) to several thousand dollars (e.g., a laptop with heavy-duty mics and an outboard soundcard).

Assuming you can afford around $500, I'd recommend getting a minidisc recorder (head to http://www.minidisc.org/ for a good site on MDs) and mics and battery module from MiniDisc-Canada. This setup is pretty cheap (and MDs are cheap to operate: cheap [& readily available] media, and low battery usage), and will give quite acceptable recordings. (The Sneakers set was done with these mics and battery module.)

If money's tight, you can even use a just a mic and still get good sound (I believe dave-O has done this). This setup is also small enough to fit into a shirt pocket.

Next, what's the purpose of the taping you're going to do? The tapers you see in a Phish concert tapers' section are there to make recordings to be distributed far and wide, and so need to be as good as possible; these are the guys who spend kilobucks on mics, use 20' high stands, etc. If you're more interested in documentary and limited distribution, you can get by with a lot less.

Another good tip is to have a 1/8"-stereo-plug to 1/8"-stereo-plug patch cable, to allow you to patch into another taper's rig, should there be a better one available.

For reference, I use a Sony TCD-D8 DAT (Digital Audio Tape) recorder, with the afore-mentioned mics and battery module (though I'll soon start to use a Cascade M-20 mic [and to-be-determined phantom power and A/D converter]; this was the rig I learned on, so I went with it.

Hope this helps,

Brad

[c-towns]

Thanks Bradm, what do these minidisc systems run for about, I like the idea of running that T mike right into the mini disc, what else would I need to run this kind of system.

thanks again

JamesD

[bradm]

MD recorders usually go for a couple of hundred dollars. Drop by your local Sony store and see what they have (in particular, check for a mic input; ISTR some that only had line-in). eBay can also be good, but remember that you're buying used (possibly abused) gear; caveat emptor. (If you find a promising unit on eBay [or at a local used-gear/pawn shop], head to minidisc.org to get the specs/reviews on the unit.) I'm not sure what unit dave-O has, but I've heard stuff he's done with it, and it sounded OK to my ears.

Note that MDs have one minor disadvantage: the maximum recording time is 80 minutes of stereo. Some units can record twice that in mono (which often isn't a big deal: small clubs often do a mono PA mix). Be prepared to get good at disc swaps.

Aloha,

Brad

[SolarGarlic]

FYI, if you're planning on putting any recordings onto your computer, you may want to have a decent sound card. FYI, Axe music here in town has a number of good sound cards but they may be more than you're looking to spend. THe best bet runs for around 250.

Heading to JSB tomorrow??? Ill give ya a ring in the eve ....

[Weirdness]

Hey! Not sure what kind of coinage you're thinking on spending, but there are a bunch of new toys out there reasonably priced. ADK supposedly has some fab mics for the buck out right now, and I've heard some good things about Oktava's as well.

Far as a Pre/AD goes, there's this thing out that's called an Edirol UA5 which is relatively cheap and supposedly fantastic in terms of quality. It does need to be modified though to run into an MD or DAT deck. I'd strongly recommend the DAT thing over the MD, primarily because of doing digital transfers, but uncompressed sound is always better. You can score a used Sony D7 or D8 pretty cheap these days. It's also much easier to get a digital patch if you've got a DAT deck which is often real handy, especially if you're not going to go all out at once.

Hope this helps. If you think I'm full of shit, there are a bunch of online resources for this type of thing, I can email you some links if you want.

[c-towns]

Well I made the leap, I picked up a portable MiniDisc Recorder at future shop on sale for $296, reg $399, and also the T mic for another $100, now I just have to learn how to use damn thing.

Ya Solar, I'm in for JSB, I wanna try this bad boy out, if I have time to try it out, give me a call this evening, if you need the number send me an email.

peaceinjam.jamesd.

P.S. if anyone has any advice about how to use this effectively please feel free, bradm said something about Dave-O using something similar.

Thanks in Advance.

[dave-O]

Hey, that is my set-up to a "T" (pardon the pun)...

Your only limitation is the T mic quality. It's good but not great. The beauty of this compact set-up is that you can put it anywhere (including shirt pockets for those extra stealth occasions).

I only tape for my own personal use, so I'm usually not too concerned about picking up audience chatted and what not in the club. For a better quality recording you're going to need to scout out a good location for the mic.

Other helpful hints:

Don't use any mode on the MD that allows for "extended record times". Shorter time = Higher quality

I find max'ing out the recording levels (to just below clipping) produces a better recording.

Have fun.

[bradm]

Welcome to the club, j.

One way to get used to using your gear is to practise in your living room: put on some music you like, crank it up to a decent level (for your ears and/or neighbours), and record it from the comfort of your easy chair, right in front of your speakers, the other end of the room, etc. Then play the recordings back (or transfer them to your PC and burn to an audio CD) and see how they sound. (If you're friends with a band, see if you can use a band rehearsal as a practice session; you get to practise, they get a copy of their rehearsal.)

If you can set up a secondary sound source (e.g., the TV), you can pretend it's crowd noise and see how you can minimize how much of it gets recorded by positioning the mics, arranging things, etc.

It's also a good idea to practise changing MDs, which you can also do in your living room: get the recording going (e.g., using a live show on your stereo), and when there's a song break, change discs and re-start the recording.

Good stuff to bring to a show includes:

• masking tape
• patch cables (one 1/8" stereo plug to 1/8" stereo plug, one 1/8" stereo plug to 1/8" stereo jack, and one 2 RCA plugs to 1/8" stereo plug is a good set; your local Radio Shack should have all of these)
• spare batteries
• AC adaptor & extension cord (just in case you can get at an outlet somewhere)
• spare MDs
• pen & paper
  

And don't forget to introduce yourself to and check with the band about taping; personally, I don't tape unless I have explicit permission.

Good luck!

Aloha,

Brad

P.S. One final tip: when you take a disc out of the unit, flip the write-protect on the disc, in case that disc gets confused with your blanks.

[Tungsten Gruvsten]

Hey Brad-have you used that new mic yet?? I'm interested to see how it fares live. I've only ever used it for voiceovers etc.

If you do tape a mono show, i've got a couple slick ideas on how to make it stereo once in the computer....

[c-towns]

Thanks for the help guys, only one more question for the time being,

quote:

---

I find max'ing out the recording levels (to just below clipping) produces a better recording

---

from Dave-O.

Just wondering what the clipping is?

Thanks again guys

[Phred]

Clipping is when the input coming from the mic is too loud. It can distort, and digital distorion sounds like total crap.

Your minidisc player may have a little light indicator that shows the levels that a being recorded and when it starts going into the red. depending on how your display works, it may have numbers like -12db 0db etc. Most people will say that your target is 0db, but try not to go over it too much.

Some indicators may just tell you when it clips, by showing a red light.

Good luck

P.S. Brads practising ideas are great!!!

[bradm]

If the incoming signal gets too loud for the recording medium, any signal above the max level will be "clipped" off/down to the max. (Imagine a sine wave with a level varying from +1 to -1 fed into something that couldn't handle anything outside +0.5 to -0.5. Between those values, everything's OK, but when the incoming signal goes outside those values, what gets recorded will be a flatline stuck at the max.)

When recording*, clipping (especially digitial clipping) is bad. As you practise, see how varying the levels (from low to high to clipped; keep an eye on the recording level meter on the MD unit [in a club, this is where a flashlight is handy]) changes what you end up hearing after transfer, and see what clipped music sounds like.

Generally, you want high, but not clipped, levels, to give you maximum signal for the (generally fixed) amount of noise that arises during recording.

Aloha,

Brad

* There are actually times when clipping is desired: guitar fuzzboxes (and cranked-up amps) clip the signal, which introduces good-sounding higher-order harmonics.

[Tungsten Gruvsten]

There are actually a couple places where clipping occurs- the mic's themselves can clip if the SPL(Sound Pressure Level) is exceeded-ie putting them to close to a really loud PA. Those little mic's are pre-polarized electret types which don't have a built in preamp so they probably have a lower SPL and are more prone to clipping.

Also, you can overload the preamp in the A/D stage of the minidisc as well as the actual digital convertors themselves-overloading the pre sounds bad (but is similar to a distortion pedal) but overloading the convertors results in real bad distortion that very un-musical. I'd stay away from 0dB and aim for peaks at -6dB....try and get there for soundcheck, and assume they will turn the soundsystem up for the actual show so your record input level should go down....

good ideas brad!!

[bradm]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phred:

P.S. Brads practising ideas are great!!!

---

Don't forget the advanced course: you still practise in the living room, but with the shades drawn and the lights out, while drunk/stoned out of your gourd...

Aloha,

Brad

[dave-O]

Exactly what Tungsten said - aim for peaks around -6dB. I'm sure that your MD will have a recording level indicator.

[c-towns]

So I had my first taping experience last night (Jimmy Swift Band) at Morgans. The show was wicked, surprisingly good turn out. I met the band and their crew, great guys. Anyway, to the taping. I had the mic up high about 15ft back, in front of the band. I got the entire first set and the batteries died as Craig said "we'll be right back. (set break) Drugs, Drinks and Dancin got the best of me in the second set.

So I went to listen to it this morning and all is well except for the bass drum which sounds like a shot gun every time its hit. Can this be altered in the process of burning?? Also I wasn't sure if I recorded it to loud, here's the scoop.

My recording level has 9 bars in a row

(---------) The middle bar is indicated as -12dB the last bar is indicated as "over", I am wondering what level or "bar" would optimal recording happen at in order not to get that shot gun bass drum effect. Where is this -6dB you guys were telling me about. Also I have to listen to this recording through the bug type headphones which can't handle the bass, could this possibly be an issue.

Thanks in advance to anyone who attempts to help a rookie out.

peaceinjam.jamesd.

[Weirdness]

Hey! Not sure 100% on which MD deck you've got, but if it's a Sony than it should have a switch somewhere likely on the back which says Hi or Low sensitivity. I believe that for more rock type shows, you should have it set to low which will not allow as much to come though. That'd be the the first thing to check. If it's on Low already and you're having that problem, the deck itself should have a manual mode to set your levels, versus the auto mode which will engage when you simply slide the record button over. Sometimes the auto level function on the Sony machines will peg your levels too hard, sounding harsh on the louder parts of the show. Hope this helps.

[bradm]

"Today, you are a taper, my son..."

-6 db is probably about 3/4 of the way across (that is, halfway between the -12 db point and the max). (Actually, I wouldn't worry about specific db levels; if the meter is hitting the 3/4 point most of the time, the signal will be loud enough to be heard easily, but will still have a bit of "headroom" left for the bits that are louder than average.)

As for the "booming" bass, remember that your mic is really designed for recording things like meetings, not concerts. If you get one of those battery modules I referred to, it has a bass rolloff feature which helps a lot. (I've recorded with and without the module, and without it, the bass is unlistenably boomy.) The module will also give more voltage to the mics, which will improve their dynamic range. (And yes, better headphones will also help.)

You might be able to EQ the bass down a bit during transfer, but I've never done that. I think SoundForge can, and maybe the s/w that comes with whatever soundcard you're using can; check your manuals.

Aloha,

Brad

[Jason]

If any one is interested, I have a set of Core Sound Binaural mics with a switchable bass roll off filter and a 12 foot black Monfrotto stand for sale.

email me if you want more info jas_taylor@hotmail.com

[dave-O]

No battery module here...

Your MD may have a "bass boost" or something. Try turning that off for play back.

But for me, it's all about Soundforge. It's amazing what post-production any putz with a PC can do these days. I really only use compression and EQ...

Get the software, play around with EQing. I think that's the best advice I can offer.

[c-towns]

How much?

[Tungsten Gruvsten]

if you use a bass roll off filter(ala jason's post) and roll it off before it hits the MD though you will get higher levels at the MD deck rather than wacking all the bass out with Sforge and having to normalize the now-weak source. But yeah it's pretty damn easy with Sforge...or cooledit or whatever..

alternatively if you're handy with a soldering iron you could build a small active or passive high pass filter(same thing as 'bass roll off') for 5-10 bucks in parts...maybe 15-20 in Radio Shack parts but still cheap.

actually you could build a fixed high pass that cuts off everything below 40-60Hz, there's not much musical info down there anyways, usually just rumble.

[colinw]

This thread has kept me interested. I use a Sony MD - MZD37 or something like that is the model number. I also use CoreSound binaurals to tape and I have had good results.

Tungsten - are you suggesting not to se the coresound bass rolloff, and to edit the recording on the computer? I usually use the bass rolloff and the resulting recording sounds pretty good. Should I be doing it some other way?

Colin

[c-towns]

Where did you get your bass roll-off and for how much?