Discussion of the Day 02/11/05 - "Us vs Them"

[StoneMtn]

i love stonmtn!

Aw shucks ; right back atcha Bokonon.

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

I think "us vs. them" is not a reflection of this genre of music or the people that support it.. I don't think of any other scene as a threat.

Does it bother me that other music is popular--no, I don't care how many people are in a bar, but the music bothers me when I am there. I don't appreciate "pop" music.

are people wrong to attend that club, no, its a free world do what you like.

I think this scene is wonderful, in my opinion there are more "artists" in this scene than there are in pop culture, or in most of the music I would hear at the club I worked at.

Is pop music a threat to my personal identity? No.

Is having a successful recording career wrong, no, good for them, however, I question the industry, and their decisions they make that gives people with limited talent more exposure than those with more talent. (and i don't necessarily mean this scene, there are extremely talented musicians out there, in all genres that get no exposure... I think the music business is not so much about discovering art, as it about making money--image sells.

next question--no. (do what you like)

no, there are good bands, and not so good bands, I am a critic. But, I do like all bands that can improvise, that is a major attraction for me.

I also question the reason why there are 500 people going to a club instead of seeing live music, I personally cannot stand listening to the radio, I sickens me to see how much of a business it is. I find that most stations spend too much timing advertising, and they play limited material from whatever genre they are exposing, and whenever a new album, or tour is coming around, you get dosed by the one or two popular songs by that band or person. I do wish that other musicians would get exposure. I do think there are major problems in the music industry that make it difficult for some that could make a living in the industry because they are excellent musicians, and excellent artists. Unfortunately, many music scenes have to develop their own exposure, and thankfully there are people out there that appeciate it, and do stray from the "clubs" so that we continue to have a variety of music to choose from.

[paisley]

I think people worry to much about defining themselves instead of just living... labels suck as does predictability... all the power to whoever, whatever they want to do and each to their own, be it how they dress or what they listen to... I sometimes feel sympathy for people I see as overly sheltered in their exposure to music and culture but don't worry about it much as its really none of my business or concern... nothing outside of underhanded politicians and corporations as well as the odd personal squabble is a threat to me... people should dress how they feel comfortable and happy and not be classed as a result, whether they dress up, down or in-between... I consider any music fan of any style "my own" so sure I'm comfortable around them, sometimes its reassuring sometimes its not

[scottieking]

Do you feel this way?

I gotta be honest but sometimes, I do allow myself to feel a smug sense of superiority. And I think some of you do too. It's fun to indulge in the notion that "we" have something figured out that "they" don't. Sometimes all it is simply the knowledge to wear warmer clothes if you are going to be standing out in a line-up. Sometimes even the thought to a certain extent that I am a more rounded individual because I can expreciate a wide variety of music, including in periods "theirs" while "they" may have a more difficult time expreciating mine.

Does it really bother you that a bar may have a band with 50 people in attendance while the dance club next door has over 500 people passing through the doors?

Non, chacon son gout.

Are those people wrong to attend that club?

Wrong, no. They often have more fun than we do.

Do you feel this scene is strong and reslient, or is it fragile and therefore should be protected?

From what? The only thing our scene needs to be protected from is apathy.

Is pop music a threat to either your "scene" or personal identity?

Pop music IS part of my identity.

Is having a succesful recording career (and earning a lot of money along the way) necessarily shallow, manipulative and evil?

No.

Is it vain to be clean, well-groomed and well-dressed?

No, you can be vain and not well groomed, well-dressed or dressed at all.

Do you feel reassured to be among your "own" no matter what band is on stage? No matter what they play or how they play it?

Not at all. Some of my own, scare and annoy me out of the scene or in the scene. There are very few people in the world you can have a good time anywhere with. When you find'em, latch on tight.

Great topic, MarcO. Hope to come to Hamilton soon.

[GWB]

"you gotta OJ them before they bobbitt us"

[Stapes]

I think you know me well enough, so I will leave you with this:

Hilarious ::

[TimmyB]

Do you feel this way?

No

Does it really bother you that a bar may have a band with 50 people in attendance while the dance club next door has over 500 people passing through the doors?

Yes it bothers me. Maybe it's my Christian background but I like the idea of converting people to my side of things. I love certain artists so much, that I want people that I meet to see why I love the music I love.

But once they say they don't after I try and convert them, I respect that and go on to the next person.

Are those people wrong to attend that club?

No. Live and let live.

Do you feel this scene is strong and reslient, or is it fragile and therefore should be protected?

No I do not feel this "scene" is resilient. On a smaller level, maybe. When I go to PJC or see other smaller jambands at venues in Toronto or elsewhere, I see the same people all the time (I think they frequent this board). But on a larger level I've been to larger venue shows that are half full, if not worse sometimes, and it reminds me that artist to artist this scene often struggles to succeed.

That being said, do I think because the scene is somewhat fragile that it should be protected? I don't know. If I enjoy an artist within this scene I will make efforts to attend the show. If I don't I won't. I guess what I'm saying is I'll preach the word around about what I like, and I'll support the music I like, but I really don't know how else I can protect it?

Is having a succesful recording career (and earning a lot of money along the way) necessarily shallow, manipulative and evil?

Absolutely not! All the power to them. If I don't like some specific artist I'll move on to another artist that I do enjoy. We live in a free society last time I checked and making money is what North Americans do best.

Is it vain to be clean, well-groomed and well-dressed?

No. I would prefer if all were, the clean part, that is.

Do you feel reassured to be among your "own" no matter what band is on stage? No matter what they play or how they play it?

No, no, no! If the music isn't speaking to me then I'm outta there. The community is secondary to the music, all that really matters is the music.

[SaggyBalls]

Do you feel this way?

I feel that it happens but lately I've deflated myself. I used to get uptight about how i wished for people to get over their closedmindedness and check some music out that they wouldn't normally listen to for more than 30 seconds because it wasn't recognisable or 'normal'

Does it really bother you that a bar may have a band with 50 people in attendance while the dance club next door has over 500 people passing through the doors?

it did every sunday at babylon when nero played there and there was a lineup for retro night at barrymore's...freezing party people that could've just as easily boogied down with nicer people...and perhaps learned a few new things about a musical experience.

but i learned that 'they' aren't able to 'get past' their situation because they don't care to. sort of a 'i wish these people could clue in' but it was also the point that i never quite 'clued in' to what they were doing...I thought that certain experiences could help people in the same way they've helped me but each person is different and over time I've come to a realization that 'we' are just different than 'them'...I like it...not because i feel better than anybody, but because I feel different and appreciate that. I'm done with media superiority and heightened headiness. I just want to chill without any of this overdramatic bullsh!t.

Are those people wrong to attend that club?

no. they're actually quite right to attend the club. they need to do their thing and love it. they probably do.

Do you feel this scene is strong and reslient, or is it fragile and therefore should be protected?

it's only as fragile as its drama dictates. not much of a 'scene'...i mean there are people going out but it's not deeply rooted and it's not taken seriously by those that aren't in it...so it's just little and thus stronger in some ways...but more fragile in others...thus, the 'let's get people out to shows' sentiment...it needs to be supported rather than protected.

Is pop music a threat to either your "scene" or personal identity?

nope. pop music is either really marginal or fantastic...not as grayscale as artistic musical genres...which i appreciate. lets me weed out the crap easier...i just turn the dial to CBC or college radio or throw in a CD...easier choices.

Is having a succesful recording career (and earning a lot of money along the way) necessarily shallow, manipulative and evil?

no. the recording industry is shallow, manipulative, and evil. the rockstars should be more shallow from time to time. I think their music wouldn't puss out like it often does.

Is it vain to be clean, well-groomed and well-dressed?

no. it's vain to be vain. personal hygiene, personal grooming and style really lend themselves to attitude and self worth. I think people should try to look as good as they can...not as fashionable, not as 'perfect'...just good. I know it's more comfortable to be in a situation where my personal outward appearance to be how I would like it to be. i like to look good, but most people would agree that i'm not vain...it all stems from the fact that i find it difficult to find clothes that fit me properly so i have to pay attention to some things that others don't so much. I can't go into value village and get clothes that i love as easily as somebody smaller than me. I'm picky about material and fit and shape - i also find it difficult to find a hairstyle that really does it for me. i'm a very particular person but i'm easygoing...I don't try to be all hippy chic and know some heady folk who are - and to many people the line between vanity and style is blurred.

clothes are a way for a person to have their own individuality but when one relies on that style to show off their individuality then the whole point behind looking like an individual is lost. just think about how school uniforms actually work (sure you can argue that they're a bad idea but they do produce better numbers statistically speaking) for improving grades and productivity...think about office attire...mens' dress shoes for example generally have a bit of a heel - and make you feel taller and subcinsciously feel more assertive...

Do you feel reassured to be among your "own" no matter what band is on stage? No matter what they play or how they play it?

my 'own' is chill people so yes. i hate being stuck in a group of uptight dorks that worry all the time.

The 'where are the non-heady folk' thread got me thinking again...i didn't mean to come off as a prick asserting superiority or anything...just trying to instill that inclusion is a great way to narrow the gap...and as for 'converting'...I think that's how the lot trash phenomenon may have started down south...people that aren't into it for the right reasons shouldn't be coaxed into getting involved if it means bad vibes...sure it's more loot and clout but we've got somehting special. we just have to make sure that we keep it all on the up and up.

[meggo]

great questions marco! i need to think of stuff like this for my kids at school. it has really brought out some interesting ideas!

The underriding notion here is that these people and their cultures pose a threat to our supposedly "alternative" culture and its music and should therefore be, at best, ignored or, at worst, marginilized and subjected to an inflated sense of righteous judgment.

Do you feel this way?

i will freely admit that there is some music out there which i call crappy (i.e. nickelback and all of the nickelback soundalikes). when i start hearing different so-called artists, in any genre, all following the same magic formula, i often doubt their talent or at least their commitment to making meaningful music. maybe that is my inflated sense of righteous judgement, however, i'm not claiming that it is a "truism"... just my opinion! i also understand that the music business is, after all, a business. for some musicians it isn't all about the bottom line, for some it is their job.

Does it really bother you that a bar may have a band with 50 people in attendance while the dance club next door has over 500 people passing through the doors?

heck no!! for one thing, it's more fun to see a band in an intimate setting, where you're not getting jumped and sweated on. although it does make me scratch my head sometimes, why they'd want to go to the same bar every weekend and hear the same songs, there was a time in university when that was what we did and it was FUN! everybody enjoys themselves in different ways. and, once in awhile, i still go to those places! (gasp!) i am going to expose my righteous beliefs for all to see now though; i know i am smarter than those people because i always wear a warm coat in the winter.... and pants... ::

Are those people wrong to attend that club?

i think the last answer takes care of this

Do you feel this scene is strong and reslient, or is it fragile and therefore should be protected?

hmmm... i guess that would mean defining exactly what this "scene" (un-scene, as polkaroo attests) consists of. i would simply call it good, honest music. artists playing for the sake of artistic expression, and the people who go out to hear it. everything else is/are (?) details which change depending on which particular artist is in question. so as far as good bands playing good music... i don't think that is a fragile scene at all. and insofar as the festivals, like evolve, bonarroo, moe.down and so on; their success does not seem to be in danger, either; in fact they seem to get more popular each year.

Is pop music a threat to either your "scene" or personal identity?

no, and i think scottieking was right on, pop music is a part of all (or nearly all) of us. when i was in grade five, i wouldn't tell any of my guy friends, but i LOVED new kids on the block. it's true. i like to listen to some dave matthews band CDs, and i'd probably check out a show if i had the money. i have other pop music confessions, but i don't want to lose any friends

Is having a succesful recording career (and earning a lot of money along the way) necessarily shallow, manipulative and evil?

of course not!!! i think the reason people start thinking this way is simply because the 'artists' (sorry there i go again using quotations) that often come to mind when we think of those making wads of cash, are people like britney spears, boy bands, etc etc, who maybe don't seem like they should be making that money considering their intrinsic musical talent. to me, to use polkaroo's expression, it's comparing an apple to an orange, almost. those kinds of bands are putting on a show for people, and they are working hard, and that goes a long way. it just seems unfortunate at times that other artists who really are amazing at the "art" part of it, don't get the same recognition that they do. that being said, as much as it would be cool to have, say, the slip or the burties playing in arenas, i will NEVER complain about seeing one of my favourite bands in a small club rather than the ACC!!!

Is it vain to be clean, well-groomed and well-dressed?

no way jose. to quote scottieking again, chacun son gout. i don't care what you're wearing, and i don't think i should be judging someone b/c they're wearing, say, an ironed shirt or have gel in their hair any more than i would want them to judge me cause i might have a hole in my sock. i like variety!

Do you feel reassured to be among your "own" no matter what band is on stage? No matter what they play or how they play it?

i don't know if i understand this question. any time i go see live music, i figure i am among "my own" to an extent, because we all have in common that we're there to experience a form of art. i don't know if i would call it 'reassuring', but it is nice to be among people who appreciate the same things.

that was fun marco!!! keep firing those questions at us. i think it is very good to take a hard look at why you think the things you do.

[Esau]

hmmm..I hope some of ya are getting the same bullsh!t lectures I got,especially since my answers to Marc0's questions were not different then most of ya'll...