North Korea

[Birdy]

Maybe North Korea would find it easier to feed their people if they weren't crippled by sanctions.

sanctions only make the crazy go crazier.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

According to the Jehovah's Witness flyer CJ found in our mailbox today, this is all irrelevant; we should just hunker down and hope we wake up among the 144,000.

Kind of vertigo- and nausea-inducing, when you stop to think about it. Never mind.

[hamilton]

under the U.S. Constitution which derives from their D.of I., you have the right to bear arms! So, what's the problem?

Did I miss the part where North Korea became part of the U.S.?

I don't understand what connection you're trying to create between what the American Constitution has to say regarding what private American citizens can do in America, and what the a completely different country should be able to do regarding the creation of weapons of mass destruction.

I don't blame North Korea for starting a Nuclear program.

I lay the blame on the fact that they feel it is necessary to do so.

I know you're trying to blame the Americans for making North Korea feel like it has to develop this technology, but let's not forget that the U.S. didn't just randomly choose North Korea out of a hat.

Maybe North Korea would find it easier to feed their people if they weren't crippled by sanctions.

Maybe North Korea would find it easier to feed their people if it didn't spend the vast majority of its money on maintaining the world's fifth-largest standing army, and on creating monumnets to its megalomaniac god-president.

Edited October 17, 2006 by Guest
misplaced modifier; subject-verb agreement

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

Did I miss the part where North Korea became part of the U.S.?

I don't understand what connection you're trying to create between what the American Constitution has to say regarding what private American citizens can do in America, and what the a completely different country should be able to do regarding the creation of weapons of mass destruction.

Is it not based on a philosophy of freedom of choice? Do they not preach the morals of democracy which is based on equality? So tell me why is it that North Korea should not have the right to bare the same arms as their former foes. The same I might remind you (that did not test missles by shooting them over Japan).

I am not pleased that North Korea has weapons of mass destruction. I don't blame the United States for this situation. The question I am raising is the same I tried to make a while ago. Why is it that we choose to arm ourselves? Why do leaders of rogue nations, leaders of the Western World, terrorist organizations, and everyday people choose to protect themselves via the barrel of a gun? That is, in my opinion, the fundamental problem here.

Yes, I agree that monies in North Korea should be spent on humanitarian needs. However, sanctions do compound the issue. Maybe ostersizing North Korea creates tension??

But, what the fuck do I know? (Outside of the fact that I like a good debate)

In other words, I don't disagree with what y'all are saying.

[localcrew]

Well being in Seoul I see this is very real for you. This is the problem many people have with these issues; there not immediate and real to them....people can distance themselves and philosophise carelessly, justifying with their own pet peeves and political views...ie 'it's all the Americans' fault and they deserve it'-I heard enough people with that opinion around 9/11 that i couldn't stomach it anymore.

There is a huge difference between a country like the USA having nukes and countries like North Korea and someday soon Iran and then who knows where-Libya, Syria etc etc......those are the kind of countries that will actually USE them or let them fall into the hands of organizations that will use them.

This is gonna make the cold war look like a tropical heat wave....I can't even really believe it; we kind of thought it was over when the Berlin Wall came down-wishful thinking I suppose....

[localcrew]

As for why humanity acts this way-well it's just the human condition. I think it will take a miracle to change it-The Second Coming type miracle. Sadly I don't think even hard work will change it-you can only delay and try to deal with each calamity as it arrises.

Of course the reasons a gang of religious fanatics who embrace death and prefer dealing out such death as a means to control the world and a Western democratic Nation with a standing army bear arms are obviously different.

Certainly dealing arms should be outlawed as well as developing nuclear weaponry but it is unlikely to happen-however it is something that we can work towards-or at least 'at'.

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

There is a huge difference between a country like the USA having nukes and countries like North Korea and someday soon Iran and then who knows where-Libya, Syria etc etc......those are the kind of countries that will actually USE them or let them fall into the hands of organizations that will use them.

The United States have already used them.

Don't get me wrong, I love the United States, I am a big supporter of democracy, because it does define equality---one person-one vote.

Funny, I am just about to teach Heart of Darkness to my grade 12s, and we will be looking at the darkside of human condition.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer for this debate; except for the fact that war sucks. I think we would all agree on that.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

That reminds me of something I heard quoted this morning on The Current - that the UN was not created with the intention of creating heaven on earth, but of preventing more hell on earth.

[Esau.]

The same I might remind you (that did not test missles by shooting them over Japan).

I a bit confused here & excuse me if I'm wrong, but are you saying N.Korea didn't test a long-range ballistic missile that was launched over Japan?

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

Just a side-note: (possible inspiration for my pacifist comments here?) I am watching a great documentary on the Summer of 1964 in Mississippi. Amazing. Anyhow, I want to share a quote with y'all... I forget the first name, but the last name is Forman. (No, not George)

"If we don't have a seat at the table then lets knock the fucking legs off!!!--excuse me."

I like that.

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

It was a reference to the United States and dropping the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[localcrew]

It is more worthy of discussion possibly the conundrum of pacifism. Sympathy always goes to the loser whether he was the aggressor and not to the victor even though he entered the fray in self defence. Sadly not always wishing for peace brings it about. I am not personally going to condemn US/British/Canadian troops for their efforts in WW2 or present; they certainly believe(d) they are (were) protecting us and who am I to tell them different.

Comparing a modern day aggressive-fanatical regime such as North korea or Iran with an atomic weapon and the intent to use such with the desperation of the Allied forces after years of WORLD WAR against an opponent who was intent on draining every drop of blood of their youth is off the mark.

I don't condone the existence of atomic weapons but living next to the USA for all of my forty years with their arsenal I have never felt the threat of them unleashing Hell on me......as you can see from the post of a member above they do not feel as assured in Seoul.....surely you can see the difference?

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I suppose; but then again, not many of us here were alive when the Cuban Missile Crisis was going down, and that was, from every available account, one really, really close shave. Apparently it boiled down to people disobeying orders.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

This could just get weirder, i.e., more complex than it already is - not surprising, of course, since the US has gone and legitimated pre-emptive strikes for everybody else.

China May Back Coup against Kim

THE Chinese are openly debating "regime change" in Pyongyang after last week's nuclear test by their confrontational neighbour.

Diplomats in Beijing said at the weekend that China and all the major US allies believed North Korea's claim that it had detonated a nuclear device. US director of national intelligence John Negroponte circulated a report that radiation had been detected at a site not far from the Chinese border.

The US may have employed highly classified satellite technology to detect tiny leaks of gas or elements associated with nuclear detonation, according to a diplomatic source in the Chinese capital. This would explain Washington's reluctance to explain the findings in public.

The Washington Times disclosed that US spy satellites photographed North Koreans playing volleyball just a few hundred metres from a test site tunnel after the underground explosion.

The Chinese Government has been ultra-cautious in its reaction. However, since Monday, Foreign Ministry officials have started to make a point of distinguishing between the North Korean people and their Government in conversations with diplomats.

Ahead of yesterday's Security Council vote, some in Beijing argued against heavy sanctions on North Korea for fear that these would destroy what remains of a pro-Chinese "reformist" faction inside the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

"In today's DPRK Government, there are two factions, sinophile and royalist," one Chinese analyst wrote online. "The objective of the sinophiles is reform, Chinese-style, and then to bring down Kim Jong-il's royal family. That's why Kim is against reform. He's not stupid."

More than one Chinese academic agreed that China yearned for an uprising similar to the one that swept away the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu in 1989 and replaced him with communist reformers and generals. The Chinese made an intense political study of the Romanian revolution and even questioned president Ion Iliescu, who took over, about how it was done and what roles were played by the KGB and by Russia.

Mr Kim, for his part, ordered North Korean leaders to watch videos of the swift and chaotic trial and execution of Ceausescu and his wife, Elena, the vice-prime minister, as a salutary exercise.

The balance of risk between reform and chaos dominated arguments within China's ruling elite. The Chinese have also permitted an astonishing range of vituperative internet comment about an ally with which Beijing maintains a treaty of friendship and co-operation. Academic Wu Jianguo published an article in a Singapore newspaper - available online in China - bluntly saying: "I suggest China should make an end of Kim's Government."

"The Chinese have given up on Kim Jong-il," commented one diplomat. "The question is, what are they going to do about it?"

Hinting at the options, Chinese online military commentators have exposed plots and purges inside North Korea that were previously unknown or unconfirmed. They have described three attempted coups that ended in bloodshed. In 1996, the Sixth Field Army was planning to revolt but the scheme was betrayed by a new commander. One or two plotters got away but Kim Jong-il's personal guards arrested senior officers and the Sixth Field Army's political commissars.

On March 12, 1998, Kim suddenly announced a martial law "exercise" in Pyongyang and there was gunfire in the streets of the city. The Chinese later learned that two ministries were involved in a coup attempt, and that more than 20 ministerial-level officials were killed after it was crushed.

In October 1999, a company of the Third Field Army rebelled in dissatisfaction over grain distribution during the nation's prolonged famine, which may have killed a million people.

There are rumours that Kim's eldest son, Jong-nam, is estranged from his father and living in the Chinese capital, where he enjoys a reputation as a capricious imbiber of whisky. A younger son, Jong-chol, has emerged as heir apparent.

Meanwhile, some of the North Korean elite are seeking their boltholes in China.

Xin Cheng, an estate agent in the high-rise district of Wang Jing, which is popular with resident South Korean businessmen, said many high-ranking North Koreans were buying property there.

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

well, once again, I don't disagree with you. And no, I don't have any idea of what it would be like to live in South Korea. However, I do have a fear of terrorism, and to be honest, if I didn't live next door to the United States, I would probably feel a bit safer.

I don't think the United States are the "bad guys". However, I would suggest that they have earned much of the criticism they face today. Unfortunately, their foreign policies of the past have resulted in cynicism in many, and hatred in fanatics.

Just for the record, I am not a fanatic.

[localcrew]

China has told N Korea all along to lay off the nukes; told them not to test missiles (ignored) and told them not to test said nukes (ignored).....the Chinese (gov't/military) like to ignore but not be ignored in such a fashion.

[hamilton]

I know this probably sounds a little strange, but the nuclear situation in North Korea doesn't really have much of a *direct* effect on me or any other average person in South Korea. I guess there are a number of different reasons for this.

First, although the nuclear bomb itself is new, the idea of a potential attack from North Korea is not. For over fifty years, there have been hundreds, if not thousands, of conventional warheads aimed directly at significant targets in South Korea - most of them here in Seoul. The city itself is only about fifty kilometres from the DMZ, so it would be the first place to be attacked in the case of war. Because the carnage here would be unbelievable in any case, the development of the nuclear bomb doesn't really change anything.

Secondly, most people - myself included - believe that North Korea's main aim in developing the nuclear bomb is deterrence - much like the hundreds of conventional missiles pointed this way. Kim Jong-Il isn't stupid. Any launch of a nuclear bomb would be accompanied by pretty much every nation you can think of coming over here and kicking his ass. And while that wouldn't be an easy matter itself, it would definitely be the end of the line for him and his family, as well as any geopolitical influence he might have gained through developing the technology in the first place.

Third, if North Korea *did* launch a nuclear weapon, it is unlikely that it would be aimed at Seoul anyway. A far more likely target would be Tokyo or some other Japanese city. Or, if they had the technology, they would try to hit Los Angeles or some other city on the American West coast. The only way the target would be likely to change to Seoul would be if the US deployed nuclear warheads here in South Korea, and I don't think they would do that.

Fourth, there is no driving issue currently which might incite North Korea to start a war anyway. Things have been *much* more tense during other situations in the past, such as the time the North Koreans captured a couple of American servicemen who were spying and held on to them for a significant period of time. None of these situations, as tense as they were, caused a military reaction. Nothing is impossible, but war seems unlikely, as - unlike Iraq - there is no particular advantage for America to occupy North Korea.

I think that the far greater concern is that North Korea will sell or trade the technology to some other nation or terrorist organization which *would* use it.

The more immediate concern here is what kind of effect this sort of news will have on the economy and therefore the currency. If foreign investors get cold feet and start pulling their money out en masse, there could be significant problems for the Korean economy, which would in turn cause significant problems for the entire Asian economy. No one here wants to return to the situation that occured last decade when the IMF had to bail out the Korean economy.

I realize some of these points seem to contradict each other a little, but that pretty much sums up the nation's general attitude right about now.

[edger]

Thanks Brian, I appreciate your insight on this. SEnding my love to you and Sunghee (apology in advance if I spelt her name wrong)

[Birdy]

I think that the far greater concern is that North Korea will sell or trade the technology to some other nation or terrorist organization which *would* use it.

The more immediate concern here is what kind of effect this sort of news will have on the economy and therefore the currency. If foreign investors get cold feet and start pulling their money out en masse, there could be significant problems for the Korean economy, which would in turn cause significant problems for the entire Asian economy. No one here wants to return to the situation that occured last decade when the IMF had to bail out the Korean economy.

bingo!

[localcrew]

...yup...of course the other biggy is a new arms race-involving countries even more threatening than the USSR of old was....

[hamilton]

Thanks Brian, I appreciate your insight on this. SEnding my love to you and Sunghee (apology in advance if I spelt her name wrong)

Spelling correct! Love received and returned. Sunghee says hello to everyone in Hamilton and Ottawa!

[hamilton]

...yup...of course the other biggy is a new arms race-involving countries even more threatening than the USSR of old was....

Japan is definitely going to use this as an excuse to remilitarize. They were moving in that direction anyway, but now they have a much better excuse for doing so.

More comforting is the idea that North Korea's nuclear testing is actually bringing China and the US closer to each other.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Japan is definitely going to use this as an excuse to remilitarize.

Yes, very scary. I remember when we lived there even fifteen years ago that there used to be trucks from right-wing parties driving up and down the streets with megaphones on the top blaring messages to agitate the masses. And even then, the average school kid had no clue what Japan had gotten up to during (and especially before) WWII.

More comforting is the idea that North Korea's nuclear testing is actually bringing China and the US closer to each other.

Er... that may or may not be good. Imagine a billion-plus people living the American dream - the planet would implode.

[hamilton]

More comforting is the idea that North Korea's nuclear testing is actually bringing China and the US closer to each other.

Er... that may or may not be good. Imagine a billion-plus people living the American dream - the planet would implode.

I was referring more to political goals rather than the citizens' lifestyles. Usually the two nations have differing goals on Asian geopolitics, but in this case neither nation is interested in having a nuclear-armed North Korea.

Of course, having said that, I don't know that there is really too much that either party can do about it without either escalating the conflict militarily or causing further pain and suffering to the already impoverished ordinary people of North Korea through increased economic sanctions.

[bradm]

According to

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/10/31/korea-nuclear.html

North Korea has agreed to rejoin six-nation nuclear disarmament talks, the Chinese Foreign Ministry announced in Beijing on Tuesday.

Chief envoys to the negotiations from China, North Korea and the United States held an informal meeting in Beijing on Tuesday and agreed to resume the six-nation talks, the Chinese Foreign Ministry said in a statement posted on its website.

"The three parties agreed to resume the six-party talks at the earliest convenient time," the statement said.

The agreement, if realized, marks a breakthrough in the long-stalled talks, and comes after North Korea detonated a nuclear device on Oct. 9. North Korea has boycotted the negotiations, which also include Japan, Russia and South Korea, for a year to protest U.S. financial sanctions.

North Korea has not, however, said they won't perform any more tests.

Aloha,

Brad