Vegan parents found guilty of infant murder

[onthejourney]

oh ya, that's the other thing I wanted to say.

Just so ya know, you don't actually get any calcium from milk - no matter what your age. That's not to say that there isn't calcium in milk. Confused yet? Well, our bodies like to keep calcium and phosphorus levels even. Cow's milk does have calcium but it also has phosphorus in way higher amounts. When we drink cow's milk, our body wants to even out the levels of phosphorus and calcium so in order to do that it actually begins to pull calcium (from ie. the bones) in order to level it with the amount of phosphorus. So really, cow's milk can actually deplete you of calcium.

Dairy is big business. I read something a while ago about how when they first came out with the food guides long long time ago that there was somewhat of a "money exchange" or maybe a sponsorship or something between the food guide people and the Milk industry and the beef industry too actually. I should find where I read that. None the less, don't believe everything they tell you.

I once told my sister that Lysol (and things of the like) were bad for your health. She said "why would they sell it if it was bad for you" ---ahh the ignorance is bliss but I'd rather know the truth.

[Im going home Donny]

yes I agree with you upon re-reading what I said...but I'm guessing..haha...assuming...that FBN is perceptive and sensitive and picked up on how I was feeling as I wrote that...as in I may have written it somewhat carefully....but the feelings that were in my veins were...red, red, red! and to be fair may not have been had my car not just cost us $700. bones to fix.

[Tricky]

actually the high amount of protein in cows milk and phosphorus causes uric acid in the body as well. If uric acid keeps accumulating in the body it forms ammonia in muscle tissue. The only way for the human body to neutralize the uric acid is with calcium. Unless a high external source of calcium, magnesium and vit. D are taken to offset these toxic effects, the source of calcium is from the bones. Since most people have a HUGE protein intake and very little calcium,(because of propagated bullshit from the dairy industry), there is an alarmingly high percentage of individuals suffering from osteoporosis, bone collapse issues and many more bone and skeletal problems...crazy.

[weezy]

Breast feeding is very difficult, but many moms give up too early if they find it hard. It is the best food for your child, it also cures pink-eye and is a magical anti-bacterial agent that can be applied to cuts and sores.

It's also an instant bonding ritual - perhaps that's the theory why breast-fed babies are better bonded, they sit staring at their mom for hours and hours per day unlike bottle fed infants.

Our 2 week old and her mom have been working hard on breast feeding and it's going great! We supplemented w/ formula a few times before the milk came in which is fine, but formula doesn't know if your baby is hungry or thirsty. It's packed with the same calories and liquid content every time. The breasts, however, adjust their output to cater to the baby's thirst or hunger, so she is always perfectly sated. Ever noticed how chubby formula-fed babies get?

As for vegans... I used to be a chef and was asked to remove the honey from the tofu marinade so that vegans could eat it. (which constituted maybe 5% of our customers) Honey! Seriously, how is it cruel to eat honey? Also, I have an interest in nutrition and a vegan diet is not nutritious in the least. (unless you work really hard at it every day) - politics should never dictate what you eat.

This is all in my own opinion of course...

[Tricky]

Plants are a life form too...if vegans caught onto this they would die! just kidding...I understand the need to not eat things that are a lot like humans ie. animals, but plants are an ancient life deserving equal respect to animals. Plants and all vegetation respond well to love, proper treatment, conversation...ever hear that talking to your plants will make them grow?

Being vegan is an interesting practice and there are also many health benefits to not eating meat or animal byproducts. But it is really nothing to just take lightly or do because you think it's cool. It takes a lot of work, knowledge, education and commitment. Most the people I know have protein based shakes and think they're healthy, and they may be for now, but when they hit an older age they'll be in a whole heap of shit...and to those people that don't eat mat, or many fruits or vegetables, get with it stop all the processed crap and educate yourselves a little bit about what you're putting into your own bodies!!!You're worth the time!

[Im going home Donny]

Our breast fed baby is 24 pounds at 6 months.

I love that a man is saying he understands how difficult breast feeding is...are you kidding me??? and that a man is saying woman give up too early...holy crap...stop and consider that there are woman on this board that for a myriad of reasons had to stop breast feeding...a host of reasons that you...yes as a man..could never 'fully' understand but as a compassionate human should be able to understand. That making a mother feel guilty is NOT good beans.

But actually even a woman saying that would annoy me equally....yah equality.

Also vegan diet does not automaticly equal a bad diet just as eating meat doesn't automatically equal a healthy diet and so on and so forth.

[Im going home Donny]

shit...the seas are red again...you people! just kidding...just take me with a bag a beans okay?

and be thoughtfull and considerate to moms everywhere! ...except karla holmoka...kidnap her child!

Edited May 4, 2007 by Guest

[Tricky]

actually there is a healthy manner of eating, it differs from individual to individual because of our unique metabolic structure, location, body type, weight, ailments, predisposed genetic makeup, age, etc...

Edited May 4, 2007 by Guest

[Im going home Donny]

actually there is a healthy manner of eating, it differs from individual to individual because of our unique metabolic structure, location, body type, weight, ailments, predisposed genetic makeup, age, etc...

absolutely.

[Im going home Donny]

BTW..bottle fed babies that I know...sit and stare at their mamas too. Adopted children I have met also seem just as bonded to their moms as I am to mine...show some respect yo.

Bouche...I think you opened this can of worms...trouble maker! I'm gunna talk to your mom!

Edited May 4, 2007 by Guest

[weezy]

you ARE a fiery one...

I DO understand how difficult breastfeeding is because I've sat next to the process staring intently for the last 3 weeks, 24 hours a day. The other bit about moms often giving up too early is a direct quote from our pre-natal teacher AND from just about every nurse we dealt with (there must have been about 15-20 of them by the end).

I think what they meant was when a mom (AND DAD) have one difficult night, they give-in and break out the bottle. Once that happens, theres a good chance of nipple-confusion and the breasts won't make enough milk because the baby isn't breastfeeding and the whole process shuts down before it got a chance to get started.

...and yes I do understand that breast-feeding doesn't work perfectly for everyone - my sister had to give it up at 4 months because her baby wasn't getting enough. She made it work for as long as possible, which is all that matters.

regarding diet: A healthy diet consists of a wide variety of proteins.

[Im going home Donny]

you ARE a fiery one...

I DO understand how difficult breastfeeding is because I've sat next to the process staring intently for the last 3 weeks, 24 hours a day. The other bit about moms often giving up too early is a direct quote from our pre-natal teacher AND from just about every nurse we dealt with (there must have been about 15-20 of them by the end).

I think what they meant was when a mom (AND DAD) have one difficult night, they give-in and break out the bottle. Once that happens, theres a good chance of nipple-confusion and the breasts won't make enough milk because the baby isn't breastfeeding and the whole process shuts down before it got a chance to get started.

...and yes I do understand that breast-feeding doesn't work perfectly for everyone - my sister had to give it up at 4 months because her baby wasn't getting enough. She made it work for as long as possible, which is all that matters.

regarding diet: A healthy diet consists of a wide variety of proteins.

First..I'll get out of this thread soon. I promise but first...congratulations on being a new daddy!!!! Isn't it amazing?!

Second...thanks you obviously took me with a bag of beans like I requested.

Third...I don't think most woman..who intended on breastfeeding then stopped..stopped after just one or two or three bad nights. I can't quite remember now but when I thought I might stp I think it was after months of pain and blisters and engorgement and crying...I did obviously get through it but like I said had it not gotten easier when it did I would have stopped.

I guess too I just think we need to be carefull...to not say..well I know how it is..I've been there. Because we have never truely been where someone else has.

Don't get me wrong I am very pleased the current atmpsphere encouirages breast feeding but I don't like woman being made to feel badly if it didn't work for them in their personal situation. Thats just wrong and mean.

I guess in a way I'm lucky it was so hard and that I came so close to stopping because its given me a much greater understanding that every situation,every mom, every dad, every baby is unique...I'm not trying to attack now but hope you get what I'm saying?

ahh anyways...just real;izing you are a new dad just makes me want to say congratulations over and over again!!!!!!!!

Enjoy!!!!!!!

[Tricky]

regarding diet: A healthy diet consists of a wide variety of proteins.

Is this Atkins? lol...I think to be more accurate, a healthy diet consists of protein from varied sources, simple carbohydrates, and whole foods in general. Proteins come in many different 'packages', but the one's easiest to assimilate into the human body are vegetation. It is a misconception that complete proteins are not found in plants. Anyways, It is tragic that this child dies because of the complete lack of education the parents had regarding food choices and their belief surrounding food.

I'm a new daddy too! my baby is 1month and 3 days old now! It is amazing...a little unique expression of the universe opening her eyes for the first time to everything.

Edited May 4, 2007 by Guest

[Im going home Donny]

YAH BABIES!!!!! Congratulations!!!!!!!!Everytime you think it can't possibly get better...it does!...haha and everytime you think you can't handle it...you can!

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Babies blow minds. I love 'em. I've been solidly addicted to our own for ten years now.

What seems especially brutal about the sentence in the original story is that the parents still have to live with that loss on top of everything else. It's dizzying work trying to get it right at the beginning. Who knows what the whole story here is, but they might have been so out of touch that they just couldn't read the signs, but stuck to their beliefs as all kinds of fundamentalists do, regardless of evidence (I think religious fanatics who raise their kids like that should be charged to the full extent of the law, but that's another story ); there may just have been no one there to help them. Parents need whatever help they can get.

[Im going home Donny]

yeah..I can't help but think they should have been charged with a lesser penalty such as negligant homicide...but yah I don't know tghe full story.

Its just sad, sad, sad...I would opt out of life if my parenting decisions led directly to my sons demise.

[snarfmaster C]

wow. this post has surprised me in a lot of ways. demonstrated that until you live something you likely don't have a clue. with respect to both veganism and breastfeeding.

howler's got the breastfeeding side covered, but veganism? the attitude and perception of pretty much everyone posting here has really surprised me.

Also, I have an interest in nutrition and a vegan diet is not nutritious in the least. (unless you work really hard at it every day) - politics should never dictate what you eat.

suffice it to say that a vegan diet is nutritious, and a vegan diet requires an intense dedication and a lot of time and effort - both in food preparation, as well as in education and practise.

there are vegans who work hard at it every day. this is why the headline of this story is so unfortunate. please, don't judge us all as being unhealthy fanatics.

finally, politics *do* affect what we eat. see comments above re. the dairy industry. see other societies.

the unfortunate fact is that the farmers don't have the same marketing budget that processed and convenience food businesses have. there is no policy in place to keep this balance in check.

go vegan! (...but do it well)

[edger]

finally, politics *do* affect what we eat. see comments above re. the dairy industry. see other societies.

the unfortunate fact is that the farmers don't have the same marketing budget that processed and convenience food businesses have. there is no policy in place to keep this balance in check.

I'm no vegan, but Amen to that. Food security is probably one of the most single important issues affecting our society. The "politics" involved are directly tied to ecological integrity, the viability of local economies, power/equity, nutrition/health. If we were able to get a good solid infrastructure in place that supported fresh, local, seasonal food, as a viable alternative their would be sooo many integrated, mutual benefits.

[phorbesie]

edger i have a hard time understanding your posts for all the buzzwordage!

:grin: :crazy:

[popo weenie]

They were intent on keeping a baby on a nutrient-starved diet, so throw away the key I tell ya!

that happened here a couple that were at the air force base in chatham

they got off and sent to ontario, their hometown

any animal that does that sort of a abuse should really be shot

and i mean shot like blow the heads off the bastards imagine

[bokonon]

Stupid people eat a lot of different things.

Yep. Why does this argument make me think of SAT tests? If some stupid people are vegans and these people are stupid, does that mean they;

a) are definitely vegan

might be vegan or,

c) are stupid no matter what they eat?

[d_rawk]

For some mothers, the experience of breast feeding is horrible and painful and for some it just doesn't work. The added stress of people telling them they are less of a mother because they are not breast feeding is plain cruel. This is not good for the baby or the mother. I have seen this happen.

F'kin right, absolutely. The question is the quality of the formula, in such cases, and the assumptions that have gone into its development/selection. Often those assumptions are unfounded or downright dangerous, but the products get pushed as viable alternatives when they are not. By MDs as much as anyone.

We have a mother in the office who breast feeds her baby... DURING MEETINGS!!

Suck it up dude. Babies need nourishment more than you need your meeting.

I'm with tricky re: cow's milk too, at least in this so-happily-industrialized part of the world. Milk pushers carry the guilt of the ever increasing rates of osteoporosis in societies with the most access to and the highest consumption of the stuff. There's nothing wrong with milk. There is something very, very wrong with the way that we handle and produce it.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Suck it up dude.

Was that phrasing intentional ?

Edited May 6, 2007 by Guest

[SaggyBalls]

I think it's interesting to stumble across these threads here. So many vegetarians and conscious minds on this board. I expeted soy to come up, as I did breastfeeding versus formula...as I did the direction of thought that vegans are right/wrong...

Things to consider - the fact that humans are not designed to take in soy protein or cow's milk or any man-made, processed foods (like bread made from flour for example), and that veganism is 99% a political choice rather than a dietary one.

I don't know a single person that brings up how easy it is to eat properly as a vegan before saying something about how it's more environmentally or socially conscious and that it's a decision we as humans can make in this society.

Hell, I don't even hear the old 'all canadian dairy is pasteurized, thus rendering it empty food value - making the infusion of vitamins and minerals absolutely necessary to even attempt to outweigh any of the negative effects dairy has on the body' argument before I hear about how it's a social choice.

I don't see the difference between forcing veganism on a child and forcing religion or politics on a child. Those values aren't something a child should ever have to deal with and even in the case of really intelligent, functioning vegans, it is not a natural lifestyle that a human would ever face in the wild.

Our physiology is that of an omnivore. We can survive without meat but if we ever try to eat it after a long time without, we become sick. That doesn' mean that meat is toxic, it means that we conditioned our body to not accept something it was designed to.

The mass farming of animals for human consumption is often inhumane and unappreciated, but villifying it completely is just as nearsighted as vegans on their soapboxes and meateaters playing into their political trap.

Assuming milk intolerance doesn't play into it, It is far healthier for someone to get their protein from cottage cheese or a can of tuna than it is from soy as our bodies can metabolize animal protein. Better yet, the art of food combining (cooking with ingredients that support oneanother nutritionally and your body can more easily digest together) plays a far greaater role in nutrition than politics and food fashion.

I'm a firm believer in eating real food. Vegetables, grains, meat/fish/eggs/beans, cheese, nuts, natural oils - and to a lesser extent vinegars, honey, herbs, spices - and like to avoid foods that have been processed as our bodies don't really metabolize them efficiently.

I'm not the posterboy for healthy living, but I know what feels better and it makes a world of difference when I can stick to my guns and not listen to the canadian food guide or the establishment when I'm told to avoid saturated fats (re: coconut oil) and that soy products are good for me. my body is not biased.

[Tricky]

The canada food guide was actually started by a sugar company for the purposes of carbohydrate consumption. It was then just passed on to schools and individuals were educated on the guide. It was never looked into until recently, and now it is being revised. Our society was based upon a food guide formed by people that did no research into it at all...is this why we are an unhealthy society? (amongst other things as well).