Hamilton to Build "Massey Hall" Like Venue

[Booche]

Yeah dont build it and dont build that new hotel because of this sleazeball. Tourism dollars suck for local merchants.

[paisley]

I say chase out the bad with good

just because some idiot sets up shop in a neighborhood I visit doesn't mean I should vacate, more the other way around... not so funny thing is I think business has actually increased at "Sleazeballs" since that story broke... would love to have a good business next door to him to support

Edited November 9, 2007 by Guest
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[phishtaper]

My understanding (based entirely on the spec article) is that there are three different developments: the hotel, the concert hall, and the parking garage. Im just talking about the concert hall, and I just cant see it getting off the ground. Sure, the HoB reference is simply that - a reference for the type of venue. But, buddy wouldn’t have the deep pockets associated with HoB - Live Nation - Clear Channel, so he’d have to finance it on his own and given his recent conviction and this particular market, who’s lining up checkbook in hand? And I doubt he has $15 to $20 million of his own. I sense its all wishful thinking, but I don’t know anything about it.

On the “would this thing be cool if it ever came to be†note … yeah, it could be for a while, but the Hamilton market cannot sustain a profitable 2000-seat concert venue. Toronto could barely support this sort of a concert venue, so the Hammer doesn’t have a hope. I agree with MarcO that this place would just turn into a nightly drunken dance party and if that’s the case, why bother. If the article can be taken seriously, the city seems to be looking for the magic bullet, and is insane if it thinks this is it.

[larry_llama]

However, I don't really see much potential for a new venue the size of Massey Hall, at least as far as music goes.

I think there is. Right now we have a few venues that kind of come close to providing the mid-size concert experience... but none of them really get it right. Think of bands the size of say, Big Sugar or SLoan or The Trews or (soon to be) Plaskett (since he seems to be on the rise). These may not be the kinds of bands that most of us are intersted in, but the city currrently doesn't have a very good place to house this kind of act, and this kind of act wil draw audiences, so lets give them a place to play!

Furthermore, the guy building the thing owns a bunch of bars in Hess and was convicted of a terrible sexual assault against one of his employees this past summer

Yes but unfortunately this is a guy (a whole family actually) with a bunch of money who is willing to invest it in downtown Hamilton. So put the guy in prison, castrate him or whatever, but I'll still take his money if it means an improvement to Downtown.

financing would be an enormous undertaking for a local developer.

This isn't just some guy who owns some bars in Hess. This guy (and his family) are building condos and hotels up the wad in Hamilton. This is probably one of the smaller projects on the plate for them right now...

But I don't know if we should be *knowingly* growing our attractions on the backs of pimps and sexual predators, like Vranich. The man opened a nightclub and assaulted one of his employees. He has a series of sexual assaults on his chit list. So, let's make a deal with him to open another project down the street?!? It launches a positive project in a negative light.

Unfortunately, there are only a handful of developers that can fund or otherwise handle large projects such as this, and it seems like half of them are somehow related to this guy. What he did is clearly fucked up but unfortunately I can't see a way to just turn our backs on this kind of development because the guy is a sleaze. I'm not defending him, but I am defending his development projects because they could play a major role in turning the downtown around and attracting even more developers.

[paisley]

the village has turned into a drunken party place as the live music has been phased out... I know the property they want to use and think it'd an ideal locale... none of the other medium large local venues really feel that comfortable to me, I go to them once every couple of years when something great drags me through the door

not holding my breath for it but am willing to dare to dream... worst that happens it doesn't happen, oh well

have noted that the new mayor is enthused about new ideas and seems willing to encourage the city taking some chances... not always the case in hamilton politics so an extra reason to give it my "yay"

[Jaimoe]

It's not only club owners that can be sleazy, so are developers. I guess he's double guilty. It's a moral issue isn't it? How many developments in the world are built on dirty money? I'd say there's a high percentage that are.

[larry_llama]

I don't have the magic answers as to how to make it work.

I do. Seriously. We need to take the province's transit funding and BUILD A LIGHT RAIL SYSTEM. High speed rail from eastgate to mcmaster for starters, then waterfront to escarpment and on upper james. This one single move (using someone else's money no less) could, and definitely would change the entire city for the better. We would appear as a beacon of light to all out of town developers as one of the most forward thinking cities in the country.

This is our chance to finally get things moving... put the R back in HSR!

ANyway, enough lip flapping. If you haven't seen it, check out http://www.hamiltonlightrail.com/ for tonnes of info about why light rail will change the city and what it's done for other places in north america. imagine the entire stretch of main street from stoney creek to mcmaster being developed into retail similar to what locke looks like... that's the kind of result we'd see within 10 years of building a light rail line.

[Jaimoe]

Federal money isn't coming to cities any time soon. The PC's don't seem to care about infrastructure and urban health.

[paisley]

"Smiles everyone!"

[larry_llama]

Federal money isn't coming to cities any time soon. The PC's don't seem to care about infrastructure and urban health.

Not federal.. provincial:

http://www.premier.gov.on.ca/news/Product.asp?ProductID=1383

MoveOntario 2020 will build 902 kilometres of new or improved rapid transit, starting in 2008.

It will create 175,000 jobs during construction and deliver 52 rapid transit projects. These include:

* The extension of the Yonge St. subway line to Highway 7

* Increasing speed and reducing emissions by electrifying the GO Lakeshore line and expanding capacity on all GO lines

* Expanded express bus service across Highway 407

* Two rapid transit lines across Hamilton, and

* Toronto's Transit City vision for light rail across the city.

[Jaimoe]

That may be, but check out the cover of today's Toronto Star.

[MarcO]

llama - I take your points, and I think that the light rail system combined with a full-on GO Train service through Hamilton would be most beneficial.

I'm not so naive as to think that these kinds of investors and developers are clean, good-faith agents. It's just this man's crimes are so horrendous, and so *fresh*, and so close to his base of operations in this area, that it makes it hard to become enthusiastic that he's expanding his empire. Where others see money being spread around, I see sleaze being spread around. Maybe I just wish I didn't know about his criminal dealings, then I could be happily ignorant.

I do wish this project success, it'll be a boon for the whole downtown core. And it has been brought to my attention that Hamilton actually could use another hotel, far from my doubts, turns out rooms can be at a premium here. Who knew?

I just wish in my heart of hearts that this funky-ass city, full of soul and good souls, could get past it's formalized associations with the mafia and biker gangs and crackhouses and gangs and I want a pair of clean hands to lead the way into our redevelopment. I guess I'll have to settle for another pimp and sexual predator to lead that way for now. It's real but it still sucks.

Anyway, again, who on earth is going to play in a 2000 capacity club/theatre in Hamilton when they could go 40 minutes down the road and do the same in a bigger market? The current Canadiana scenesters aren't enough to make it work in the long run and harkening back to the likes of Big Sugar or Sloan makes no sense. Are the people of Hamilton accustomed to absorbing the current trend of concert ticket prices that it'll take to get the "mid-level" acts to come here? How's the Westside Theatre doing? It's not even a five minute walk down the street from this proposed site.

It's great that someone wants to invest in Hamilton's core. But let's aim for smart investments, not just throwing darts at a dartboard and seeing what comes up. Sinking $15 million with tax subsidies into a venue that is destined to grow idle and underused is just another stab in the corpse.

[Schwa.]

Here is the layout of the HoB in Dalls, much like all HoBs:

Considerably smaller than Massey, and like all HoBs, a GA floor.

Dallas HoB is listed as having an 1800 capacity.

Damn near the same as Vegas HoB, fwiw.

[paisley]

ah, its the sleazeball building the place?

guess thats a bit of a down... but if so though guess I don't see money as being such an object

look at a well built, properly located venue in Hamilton instead of Toronto as similar to Auburn Hills in proximity to Detroit... less hassle finding than in a sprawling metropolis for travelers, cheaper accomodations, a night out of the big shitty for Torontonians... run properly and sensibly booked I don't see any reason it couldn't fly

[Jaimoe]

Doesn't London attract mid-sized acts? C'mon, London?! Until recently, the town was a music black hole. Even Brantford with its infamous dead downtown has a thriving live scene. If it's an easy stop on a tour, acts can get booked in any appropriate venue. You need good promotors. A couple of big acts breaking in a great new venue will help build a legacy.

[\/\/illy]

look at a well built, properly located venue in Hamilton instead of Toronto as similar to Auburn Hills in proximity to Detroit... less hassle finding than in a sprawling metropolis for travelers, cheaper accomodations, a night out of the big shitty for Torontonians... run properly and sensibly booked I don't see any reason it couldn't fly

Yup. I agree.

[\/\/illy]

Holy fuck. I just read that article. Denis Vranich was my landlord for years while I lived on York Boulevard. I fuckin' hated him. I kept telling Leanne that I thought he was an arrogant slimy douche-bag. Apparently you can judge a book by it's cover. He drove some little red Honda 2000 and thought he was the coolest shit on the face of the earth. What a fuckin' douche-bag. I've hated that guy for the last 7 years. Fucker.

[hamilton]

Doesn't London attract mid-sized acts? C'mon, London?! Until recently, the town was a music black hole. Even Brantford with its infamous dead downtown has a thriving live scene. If it's an easy stop on a tour, acts can get booked in any appropriate venue. You need good promotors. A couple of big acts breaking in a great new venue will help build a legacy.

I think the difference is that London is *just* far enough away from anything else to make it work. It's still two hours to Detroit and two hours to downtown Toronto when you factor in the traffic. Hamilton is a little too close to Toronto.

Nevertheless, *of course* I would love to see this work.

[Ol'Hickster]

Sounds neat, probally can bet I will be in there soon if the shows are rockin Love Massey Hall

[larry_llama]

That may be, but check out the cover of today's Toronto Star.

Is this what you are talking about? Seems to me it's an entirely different issue regarding social services, road repairs and other operational expenses. The provincial transit plan is a whole different beast: one time capital funding with no operational expense aid. Since a light rail system requires on average half of the operational budget of an equivalent bus system, it makes sense that we take the province's capital expenditure funds and put them toward a system that lowers the long term operational costs (which the higher levels of government consistently refuse to help municipalities with). Unless you are talking about a different story, I see nothing in that article that says the previously announced provincial transit spending is being scrapped...

[larry_llama]

llama - I take your points, and I think that the light rail system combined with a full-on GO Train service through Hamilton would be most beneficial.

Yeah, such a system would be the "make" as opposed to "break" of this city!

I'm not so naive as to think that these kinds of investors and developers are clean, good-faith agents. It's just this man's crimes are so horrendous, and so *fresh*, and so close to his base of operations in this area, that it makes it hard to become enthusiastic that he's expanding his empire. Where others see money being spread around, I see sleaze being spread around. Maybe I just wish I didn't know about his criminal dealings, then I could be happily ignorant.

Well until one of us becomes a m(b)illionaire we don't really have a say in the matter unfortunately... :-(

Anyway, again, who on earth is going to play in a 2000 capacity club/theatre in Hamilton when they could go 40 minutes down the road and do the same in a bigger market?

Jeez man, why don't you just move to toronto. What is your proposal? Don't build it? Do you have an alternative plan? Fuck, let the guy try, it's his money!

How's the Westside Theatre doing? It's not even a five minute walk down the street from this proposed site.

No offence to them but the promotion and management of a venue has a lot more to do with its success than the physical building.. just sayin'... how many interesting shows have they put on in the last month? 3 months? 6 months? year? That's not the building's fault!

It's great that someone wants to invest in Hamilton's core. But let's aim for smart investments, not just throwing darts at a dartboard and seeing what comes up. Sinking $15 million with tax subsidies into a venue that is destined to grow idle and underused is just another stab in the corpse.

So what do you propose? More parking lots? I'd appreciate your negativity a bit more if you offered up some intelligent alternatives. In my opinion this venue could be one of many things that combine to completely change the Hamilton core. Embrace it man... or move to massey hall if you prefer ;-)

Edited November 10, 2007 by Guest

[Jaimoe]

That may be' date=' but check out the cover of today's Toronto Star.[/quote']

Is this what you are talking about? Seems to me it's an entirely different issue regarding social services, road repairs and other operational expenses. The provincial transit plan is a whole different beast: one time capital funding with no operational expense aid. Since a light rail system requires on average half of the operational budget of an equivalent bus system, it makes sense that we take the province's capital expenditure funds and put them toward a system that lowers the long term operational costs (which the higher levels of government consistently refuse to help municipalities with). Unless you are talking about a different story, I see nothing in that article that says the previously announced provincial transit spending is being scrapped...

My beef is with the PC's and their lack of vision and funding towards Canadian cities. The Libs are their own beast and I've liked some of their infrastructure proposals. Dalton is generally lost when it comes to healthy cities, but this rail proposal looks good. I wish the PM had a similar agenda.

[MarcO]

are you gonna be ok there larry llama? do you need a time out or something?

skepticism is not the same as negativity.

and I never said I had the answers to this city's problems. What I can say though is this proposed venue doesn't seem *to me* to be an answer.

No, I'm not going to move to Toronto, thank you very much.

[whiteymuseum]

What's the question, first off?

And is there someone stepping up from the land-developer/property owner suggesting they've got the answer to that question?

Would they even know the question we want answered?

Would there be that many people with a concern for that question being answered beyond this message-board?

Is that too many questions?

[kc]

IMO:

That venue would do jack-shit for downtown. Hess village is not downtown. If it were actually built downtown then it would bring more people downtown.

As t2 pointed out early, it is a couple blocks from downtown and that's the border of it not the heart.

Buildings here(I'm downtown) will still be vacant, Out of towners will still be afraid to come downtown.

That venue will make a successful area of hamilton even more successful.

Why DV is suddenly turning to live music is definitely a bit questionable. I've never seen him come to a show at pepper jack's. I'd bet he's not checking out any shows at other live music venues in this city as well.

Maybe we aren't booking the kind of music that he prefers and that is why he's planning to build a place that does book what the masses want to hear??

Maybe there are more people involved who do know something about the music industry that that spec article is not mentioning. I'm just speculating here.

Or maybe..

With Fever nightclub now gone, there is a bit of a void for a large danceclub in this city. There's still 77 but it can't do that well because it is still in sketchy downtown(saracasm, I love downtown). How about a new fever style dance-club in an area that people aren't so afraid of going to. Maybe an already established area where that top 40 clubby type of person already frequents. Hmmm?

Fever easily packed 800 people there every saturday night in the winter and they could have done a lot better if there was even more space and it was less crammed aaand not downtown.

I smell a set up. A super club that will have big shows when possible/profitable but really just making another dance bar.

A kool house comparison is probably more suiting then Massey Hall.