"Economic Update"

[AD]

Well, as far as the coalition thing come to fruition there have been no motions tabled, no votes cast. The opposition parties haven't decided on who would become leader (Star is reporting possibly Ralph Goodale).

But opposition MPs are accusing the Prime Minister of hypocrisy, charging that Harper is overlooking his own efforts to forge a coalition to replace Paul Martin’s minority Liberal government in 2004.

Harper, then Conservative leader, even joined with NDP Leader Jack Layton and Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe to write then-governor general Adrienne Clarkson, urging her to look at "options" if Martin's government fell in the fall of 2004, mere months after it won a minority mandate on June 28.

"We respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation," read the Sept. 9, 2004, letter from the three leaders.

"We believe that, should a request for dissolution arise this should give you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority."

That message is in stark contrast to the one Harper delivered Friday night, when he charged that Liberals don't "have the right to take power without an election."

[Birdy]

What about Stephane Dion taking leadership? They've scheduled a leadership conference to replace him, and now, potentially, he would become PM of a coalition govt? That doesn't seem right.

[Thorgnor]

I hope they decide on Layton with a HEAVY liberal fiscal team.

i ... totally think Flaherty has missed the mark and failed to realize what pretty much the whole world is realizing about capitalism, and am really tired of the CP trying to annihilate the Liberals like they're a death squad (i even sent an email to my MP about this)

I don't want this to start a fight but I thought that you didn't buy the possibility that Steve wanted to destroy the Liberals?

Ps. We can fight about the part where you admitted that this government is woefully inept in the economic department right now and that I predicted this years ago.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Guest

[Birdy]

Well, we COULD argue that, but I'd go on to argue that the proposed alternative would be woefully inept in the economic department as well!

(you've read what I said about social reform and how i think it would work best)

Thanks for the disclaimer that you don't want to start a fight, that's cute.

I never denied Harper wanted to destroy the Liberals, I denied a socially conservative agenda of the religious right coming to fruition in this Conservative government.

This is politics, and just as much as it was apparent during the debates that the Greens, NDP, Liberals and Bloc (a little less for the Bloc, actually) didn't want Harper or the Conservatives elected, it's as apparent Harper wants to give his party the old Liberal title of "Natural Governing Party".

Edited November 30, 2008 by Guest

[AD]

What about Stephane Dion taking leadership? They've scheduled a leadership conference to replace him, and now, potentially, he would become PM of a coalition govt? That doesn't seem right.

If you've been paying attention to all the stories you'd see that there's a strong possibility that it wouldn't be Dion who takes control. Of course, like I've said before, no real action has been taken, but the Star is reporting Ralph Goodale might be the interim leader, or two of Leblanc Rae or Iggy might step aside to let the other be leader, (most reports point to Iggy). As Scott Reid said today, right now Harper's biggest strength is Dion's weakness. If the Liberals get their shit together and appoint an interim leader this week, I don't see how Harper can come out on top.

[Birdy]

Yah, not been paying attention too closely. It's been a busy weekend.

You don't see how Harper can come out on top? So, does that mean you now think the coalition is a possibility?

Plus it likely won't be Dion if this coalition thing ever comes to fruition (which it won't).

[AD]

A LOT of things have to happen for the coalition to become a reality, and I just don't think it will happen. (you missed the giant IF in my last sentence above I think)

1. The Conservatives are mean and tough and simply won't let it happen.

2. There are still 8 days to come to some sort of arrangement, or for either side to back down and still save face (which is what will happen)

3. The Liberals won't be able to get their shit together.

[bradm]

NDP, Bloc in coalition talks before fiscal update

Let's just say we have strategies. This whole thing would not have happened if the moves hadn't been made with the Bloc a long time ago and locked them in early, because you couldn't put three people together in one or three hours. The first part was done a long time ago.

Aloha,

Brad

Edited November 30, 2008 by Guest

[AD]

The Conservatives backpedaled again today, this time calling off their threat to ban public service strikes.

[Thorgnor]

I don't see that as building confidence down east or out west... trouble in the henhouse?

[Birdy]

I wonder if this is how minority governments actually start to work.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Guest

[Thorgnor]

By destabilizing their support base?

[d_rawk]

I wonder if this is how minority governments actually start to work.

Could well be. A couple more of these incidents and it might become apparent that it isn't sufficient to give lip service to "making Parliament work" during election campaigns, but that there actually has to be some follow through.

Although if either party manages to eke out a majority and keep the majorities rolling, all bets are off. I guess we'll forget the lesson again like we forgot it after Clark.

[Birdy]

Well, 54% voted on the left, so in a way, yeah we can sorta know what they were thinking.

No, 54% did not vote on the left. Some of that 54% voted for the Bloc - the Separatists. Without the separatists 'uniting' with the NDP and the Liberals to work together for a 'united' Canada, such a coalition isn't even possible.

This is sooo not cool in my books. The more I read about it, then more I really don't like. Ultimately Canadians and the principles that led them to vote are getting cast aside. Really not cool.

Upon some further reading, I agree that it makes total sense for the CP to announce their economic stimulus package shortly thereafter Obama's much larger package announcement and feel a little happier in knowing they bumped the February budget up to January to coincide with this.

AD - upon some further reading, i think it appears as though Stephane Dion is the guy widely considered for the job. Which just furthers how uncool this potential coup is. I think Canadians and Liberals themselves put the message out loud and clear that Dion wasn't the guy they wanted, when the Libs had their worst election results, ever.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Guest

[d_rawk]

No, 54% did not vote on the left. Some of that 54% voted for the Bloc

Whether people voted for the Bloc because of their policy proposals or because of their separatist leaning, I dunno, but the Bloc is an ideologically 'left' party in its current manifestation. They share the most political ground with the NDP.

Coup feels strong to me - that's what we have a GG for. But many Canadians aren't going to like this, or even fully understand what is happening or what the measures are that allow for it. And the idea of a coalition dependent on a separatist party is going to be unpopular even amongst the bulk of those who don't much care for the CPC. A week to go .. this should get interesting.

[Birdy]

Coup feels strong for me too, but it's kind of what it feels like, with all the backroom talks going on and the proposal of a 'constitutional crisis' by every major news outlet.

[AD]

It's not going to come to a coalition - Harper will prorogue Parliament before any confidence vote can be held if it were to come to that.

What's worse - a 'power grab' (as some have called it), or clinging to power unjustly and undeservedly when you lose confidence of the House?

And no, it's definitely not a coup. Tell the Serbs, Argentinians, Ukrainians, Bolivians, Iranians, etc that there's a coup in Canada and you'd get slapped in the face.

Whatever it is, it's not good. Harper has to back down and the parties to the coalition talks have to smarten up. Nothing is going to get done with all the bullshit that's happening here.

[Birdy]

I'd venture to say most of your examples of coups aren't coups but revolutions.

'A power grab'? 'Unjustly or undeservedly'? There hasn't been a non-confidence motion yet. Who are some? The Toronto Star?

It appears to me Harper is backing down, as far as I have read.

[boiler]

I disagree that nothing is getting done. This is how a minority should work. Harper is trying to use the (dare I say) depression as a chance to play politics and slide through his rightist agenda. They wanted to ban the RIGHT for public sector employees to strike. FUCK THAT. Who do they think they are, U.S. Steel and this is 1920? This is Canada, not China. Besides, who's talking strike right now anyway? That's so far off the radar right now, when so many other important things are on the radar. Like people loosing jobs by the thousands in Ontario. You think these people are thinking strike right now? These bozos need(ed) to be brought back down to reality.

It certainly is the right of the opposition, to not allow Harper to ruin our country as they see he was doing, as is the mandate given to them by the voters by NOT giving Harper a majority. I don't understand how this is a power grab, when it is the voters who gave the opposition the power already, to shoot down the PC's when they felt it needed to be done. Apparently it needed to be done.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Guest

[AD]

Birdy, the coalition talks are to a coup as Pee Wee Herman is to Stephen Hawking.

[Birdy]

Not arguing this is a coup, just sayin'.

[StaggerLee]

I'm with Boiler Rat. The opposition parties are not trying to steal power, they're trying to make the CP recognize that a minority government means sharing power and building consensus to get things done. All this talk of a coalition is a way of sending Harper a message that he can't make everything a confidence vote and govern as if he has a majority. I wish this had happened in Harper's first term.

[AD]

When I said 'nothing is getting done', I meant nothing is getting done with exactly the issues you know are so important, Boiler Rat. Instead of talking about the economy, both sides are putting politics first, and once the political game is settled, then they'll deal with public sector employees, families losing jobs, etc.

[AD]

Not arguing this is a coup, just sayin'.

you said it's a 'potential coup', and that 'it feels like a coup'. but whatever.....

[Thorgnor]

A coup is "unconstitutional"... coalition is provided for in our constitution... not a coup at all.