"Economic Update"

[Birdy]

haah... i said 'coup feels strong for me too'.

but whatever. i was just using a little dramatic prose boys.

i have a question that i really don't know the answer to and am hoping someone does - the coalition is provided for in our constitution - so what would the 'consitutional crisis' be that major news people are talking about then?

[AD]

Coup feels strong for me too, but it's kind of what it feels like

ANYWAYS, to move on....

What remains unclear is who would lead the coalition.

"The real obstacle to this deal going through is still within the Liberal party," CBC's Keith Boag reported, adding the deal is being negotiated by Dion, who believes he has the right to be prime minister.

But it's unclear whether the party wants him to continue, and the leadership candidates met Sunday evening to discuss the matter, Boag said.

The National Post reported that a deal has been worked out that would make Ignatieff, who has the support of a majority of Liberal MPs, the prime minister in a Liberal-led coalition, with Rae being named to a senior post.

But it in an interview with CTV's Canada AM, Rae said there was no discussion at the meeting among the leadership candidates that someone other than Dion would lead the coalition.

[d_rawk]

i have a question that i really don't know the answer to and am hoping someone does - the coalition is provided for in our constitution - so what would the 'consitutional crisis' be that major news people are talking about then?

I think Spector, The Herald, et al are indulging in a bit of sensationalism. I suppose the suggestion (never fleshed out as far as I've seen, which is telling) is that citizens will agree with Harper's contention that the other parties are "stealing power", be upset that the Governor General got to "choose the government even though that's not how we voted" and will demand a review of the rules.

In which case we have a giant collective civics lesson and things remain as they are.

[Birdy]

"feels'

ANYWAY ,

I think i need further clarification. I'm totally unfamiliar with the part of the constitution that allows for coalition governments, so the constitutional crisis is who acts as the leader? Is this because Dion has announced a leadership convention to find his replacement?

[Birdy]

ahhh, thanks D!

[AD]

Some guy on CBC just reported that one of the concessions to the Bloc is that they can remove English from all Federal offices and services in Quebec.

Would like to find another source for this, but if it's true that's going too far, in my books.

[Birdy]

Well, the letter's being drafted.

What a fucking joke this country is.

The goal is to inform Ms. Jean that a viable alternative to the current government exists within the current Parliament, in the form of a coalition between the Liberal Party and the NDP. The Bloc is expected to promise to support the coalition to survive for at least a year, which would allow for the passage of two budgets.

Promise that the coalition will last for at least a year? Allowing two budgets to pass without even hearing what the budgets entail?

My buzz for Canada is quickly being killed.

[d_rawk]

Allowing two budgets to pass without even hearing what the budgets entail?

That does seem troubling .. although I guess some cynical comfort can be taken in the fact that they wouldn't be obligated to keep that promise if a budget was particularly onerous

A similar thing happened with the Liberal-NDP accord in Ontario under Peterson.

[Birdy]

Emphasis on the word "particularly".

I need to find land somewhere in the middle of nowhere, completely surrounded by trees, a small body of water, and some good fertile land. No tv, no computer and no newspaper delivery.

[Thorgnor]

better hope it's got no resources, or you won't be maximizing it and therefore liable to loose it.

[AD]

can you post the rest of the letter?

[ollie]

Not arguing this is a coup, just sayin'.

That's the word that keeps coming to my mind. Even if it's technically "not" I think this sets a bad, bad precedent.

Y'all lost the election. Try better next time.

[d_rawk]

But it's not really a precedent .. Peterson? King-Byng?

A government must command the confidence of the house. If it fails to do that, the government dissolves and either an election is called, or, if it can be demonstrated that another (small p) party of elected officials - whether that is a single (capital p) Party, a coalition, an accord, whatever - is capable of governing whilst enjoying the confidence of the house, they can form government. The people who are negotiating this coalition did not lose the election. They are elected members of Parliament.

I'm not super anxious to see this thing happen, but welcome to Westminster

[Birdy]

You know what would sit better with me? If this non-confidence motion was brought about by a lack of faith in tax-cuts, or the crime bill, or over some whacked-out socially conservative agenda. But no, the non-confidence motion wasn't brought out on behalf of the daily worries of the average Joe-Shmoe Canadian, it was brought about because these political parties might lose their funding. If this thing goes through, and it's not just a scare tactic, shame, shame, shame on the NDP and the Liberals. And shame, shame, shame on Westminster for allowing it to happen.

Don't get me wrong, I think Harper is a complete goof for ever going here, but to vote down this government with it's strong mandate as a minority government, with more seats then both the NDP and the Libs combined, and to prop up a coalition with 'promised' support of a Separatist party makes me feel ill. Someone posted a Jack Layton quote in the other thread saying the best thing for Canada would be the Bloc working for it, and in my books, Layton just lost out big time with me for saying that. What about the people who voted for those Bloc MPs??

Whatever. I'm irritated.

AD - it's not the actual letter, it's a Globe and Mail piece... here it is:

Opposition set to present coalition to Governor-General

Leaders from all three parties drafting letter that informs Rideau Hall a viable alternative to Conservative minority exists within current Parliament

DANIEL LEBLANC

Globe and Mail Update

December 1, 2008 at 11:35 AM EST

OTTAWA — The three opposition leaders are drafting a letter to Governor-General Michaëlle Jean in which they formally call on her to allow the formation of a coalition government if the Conservatives are defeated in the House of Commons next week.

Opposition sources said Monday the drafting of the letter is at an advanced stage, and will be made public with the agreement of the leadership of the Liberal Party, the New Democratic Party and the Bloc Québécois.

The goal is to inform Ms. Jean that a viable alternative to the current government exists within the current Parliament, in the form of a coalition between the Liberal Party and the NDP. The Bloc is expected to promise to support the coalition to survive for at least a year, which would allow for the passage of two budgets.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has raised doubts about the legitimacy of a coalition government, and is expected to urge Ms. Jean to call an election in the event of a defeat in the House.

The opposition letter, in that context, is designed to persuade Ms. Jean to reject the Tory push to send Canada to the polls for a second time in three months.

"She has to be ready to say 'no' to Mr. Harper's request to call an election," an opposition strategist said. "We want to demonstrate that the new Prime Minister would have the confidence of the House."

On Friday, Mr. Harper went before television cameras to slam a potential Stéphane Dion-led government as illegitimate because he lost the Oct. 14 election.

But the Liberals and NDP said those arguments were undercut by Mr. Harper's 2004 letter to then-governor-general Adrienne Clarkson, which requested that she turn to him if Paul Martin's newly elected government were defeated in the Commons.

"We respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation. We believe that, should a request for dissolution arise this should give you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority," the 2004 letter stated.

Over the weekend, the Liberals and NDP reached a deal to bring down the Conservative government and form an unprecedented coalition to take its place that would include cabinet seats for both parties — 18 Liberals and six NDP.

The two parties held emergency caucus meetings Monday to lay out the plan under which the Tories would lose power to Canada's first coalition government in 91 years.

The key question of who would lead the first coalition government of modern times remained unsettled, as Liberals differed over whether Mr. Dion should take over as interim prime minister, or a new leader be chosen — and leadership contenders Michael Ignatieff, Bob Rae and Dominic LeBlanc met Sunday to discuss how to proceed.

That meeting took place against the backdrop of frantic efforts to avert the downfall of the Conservatives, who announced they will withdraw measures that would have banned civil-service strikes for three years and eliminated the $1.95-a-vote subsidy for political parties, which the opposition relies on.

The Tories also unveiled a surreptitiously recorded tape of a New Democratic Party caucus meeting, alleging it showed a long-existing cabal with the Bloc Québécois to defeat the government — and there were rumours that as a last resort, Mr. Harper might seek to prorogue Parliament, ending the session to avoid defeat in the Commons.

[AD]

the non-confidence motion was brought about because these political parties might lose their funding.

that was a red herring which has since been retracted, and the coalition talks are going ahead on the premise of no economic stimulus from the Conservatives.

breaking news - Liberal caucus is unanimous in saying Dion would lead the coalition.

[d_rawk]

(@Birdy) Yes, this is where I am torn. The political party funding was, to me, a legitimate concern but was retracted. Revoking the right to strike was absolutely absurd, but has been retracted. So the remaining concrete complaint is lack of stimulus initiative, but if that had been the only grievance from the beginning, this whole ordeal probably wouldn't have gotten underway .. so .. on one hand it feels as though the opposition parties have set their mind to something and are plowing ahead, regardless of getting many of the concessions they were after.

On the other hand, I believe that Harper truly blundered, demonstrated a will to govern as a majority despite not being given that mandate, has escalated partisan divisions to an almost irreparable degree, and (to use a cliche common in the popular coverage) 'poisoned the atmosphere' of Parliament.

I feel like I don't really have a horse in this race. I don't think that there is anything wrong with what the opposition is doing right now (in fact, I think it quite right and responsible of them that they should do it), but I wonder if the 'backing off' point might not have already been reached. They've put the fear of God into Harper for now - there will always be more confidence motions.

For the NDP, specifically, I wonder if they aren't walking right back into 1974.

[AD]

Romanow, McKenna, Manley and Martin to form advisory panel on the economy.

[AD]

and holy fuck did Harper ever fuck his shit up. what an idiot. and by fucking his shit up, he fucked up the whole country at the worst time. asshole.

[d_rawk]

Question period begins now. Popcorn.

[Birdy]

agh! i need a live update on question period!

Dion is the 'unanimous' choice to lead the coalition? FACK! What the f is going on here?

[d_rawk]

CPAC streams live over the internet, if you can get away with it at work.

[AD]

None of the other three are the elected leader of the Liberal Party, the Official Opposition. It had to be unanimous to not be considered weak. Iggy has more support, but hasn't been elected leader.

[d_rawk]

Flaherty: "The BQ is the only party with any actual economic plans."

Haha :laugh:

[AD]

At least Flaherty realizes that the Cons don't have any plans.... He resigns first, then Giorno.

[d_rawk]

Harper: (paraphrased) You are doing a deal with the separatists in order to get the power that the voters denied you.