"Economic Update"

[can-o-phish]

Well if Monday wasn't interesting enough, next Monday should be a helluva doozy...

If I were a gamblin' man I'd say Canada is looking at a coalition if the GG chooses to accept Harper's resignation.

Harper's biggest blunder, the ultimate mistake was running his minority government as a majority.

The New Libs On The Bloc

[phishtaper]

... the ultimate mistake was running his minority government as a majority.

yep

[Birdy]

Aaaaaaah. I must have missed that bit assuming it is correct. Thanks.

now only means now when a gunman says it.

I have no idea what you two are referring to.

I find it interesting that we can so easily dismiss the ENTIRE bloc based on one peice of their ideology when we all expect each other to put little bits of ideology aside to understand where we're coming from. I think it's actually a very non-partisan, open-minded idea to form a coalition government. If the Cons were not so insistent on "ruling" instead of governing I think they could quite easily sit across the table in a fully non-partisan cabinet, and yes, I do think it could happen.

I don't want to start a fight, but isn't this kind of what you were doing with the CPC?

I agree that it's a very open-minded non-partisan idea to form a coalition government as well, but i don't think it's quite so easy to say that being separatists is a small piece of their ideology. It's actually a huge piece of their ideology in that they advocate for Quebec to actually separate from Canada and form their own nation. I fear that a coalition formed by the NDP and the Liberals, supported by the Bloc is going to see an unfair balance tip to that province in terms of transfers. Quebec first, the rest of you later.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Guest

[can-o-phish]

I don't want to start a fight, but isn't this kind of what you were doing with the CPC?

I agree that it's a very open-minded non-partisan idea to form a coalition government as well, but i don't think it's quite so easy to say that being separatists is a small piece of their ideology. It's actually a huge piece of their ideology in that they advocate for Quebec to actually separate from Canada and form their own nation. I fear that a coalition formed by the NDP and the Liberals, supported by the Bloc is going to see an unfair balance tip to that province in terms of transfers. Quebec first, the rest of you later.

Oh, by all means start a fight because the Bloc definitely has an agenda that will put Quebec first.

As least we can say we're living in interesting times, poitically!

[d_rawk]

I have no idea what you two are referring to.

I gather they are wondering the same thing as I am .. what's the 'package' to be delivered in two months, where is this referenced, what does it entail, and why was it not in the budget?

[edit:] Don't mind me Birdy, I'm being an idiot and confusing my financial updates with my budgets proper. Budget is not due until January .. I see what you are saying.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Guest

[ollie]

Wait 'til they come back with a majority.

Is there any other end result? I have no idea why the Libs are taking this path.

Would you (the general you) be ok with this if it was a coalition of right-wing parties attempting to overthrow an elected Liberal party?

[bradm]

my budgets proper

Band/song name claimed.

Aloha,

Brad

[d_rawk]

Feel free, it's yours

(just stirring the pot now and recognizing that this has shades of Obama-flag-lapel controversy) And where was Harper's AIDS ribbon during QP? (/just stirring the pot now)

[Thorgnor]

I meant that now is when citizens were demanding reaction, and now for this government was in two months.

I did that with the CPC because of the fact that the only opinion being seen was that of Mr.Harper... now we see what his agenda was.

The seperatists on the other hand wear their agenda on their sleeve. I have in the past called them fascists and I still feel this way, but I do not feel that they would hurt Canada to urge Quebec's seperation if that meant hurting Quebec as well. They're not seperatists at "any cost", otherwise they'd be armed.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Guest

[Birdy]

Well, upon hearing what Flaherty said about waiting for Obama, I totally agree and really think that makes sense. What doesn't make sense is announcing large scale economic stimulus and then having the new administration down south come in and go an entirely different route (I wish I had thought about this before I immediately condemned this financial update). Ours should compliment theirs, because they have to work, really, really closely together.

The separatists are separatists, and yes, they wear their agenda on their sleeve. I don't think they're going to hurt Canada, but I do think they're going to use this as their golden opportunity to finally get what they've been demanding of our federal government for years. And I can't blame them for it, it's a golden opportunity. I just honestly have no idea what's going on in the minds of the Liberal Party right now. It seems like sheer desperation for power. Sorry, but it does. I can't wrap my head around it any other way, and I've been trying.

How are our citizens demanding reaction? I haven't noticed anyone demanding anything. It's not like there are public rallies for economic stimulus or picketing on parliament hill. It's boiled down to the left thinking their way is THE way, and anything else isn't to be considered 'action'. I started streaming CPAC today at work and had to turn it off because of the ridiculousness that was being shouted across the floor by all parties.

Anyone else see that our economy grew 1.3% this quarter? Making Canada one of few countries in the world to have such growth? Sure, it's not going to last, but it's something to note.

Ollie brings up a good question that noone has answered.

Would you (the general you) be ok with this if it was a coalition of right-wing parties attempting to overthrow an elected Liberal party?

Edited December 2, 2008 by Guest

[d_rawk]

Ollie brings up a good question that noone has answered.

Would you (the general you) be ok with this if it was a coalition of right-wing parties attempting to overthrow an elected Liberal party?

I'll play Totally I would, for all the same reasons. (Though I'd also still have the same caveat that I think there is a time to back off once you've gotten what you asked for)

I was none too upset about the Conservatives, the NDP, and the BQ telling Martin where to shove it. Not a coalition of right-wing parties, granted, but there is no such coalition to be had under the circumstances. If the Alliance, the Progressive Conservatives and the Reform Party existed in this day and age as distinct political parties and the Liberals had a minority government and were acting like absolute douches, I'd think it their duty to say 'shape up or ship out'.

[bradm]

I figured it out. It all makes sense now.

Consider: Royal Canadian Air Farce is ending this fall. I speculate that this whole economic-update-leading-to-a-coalition business was cooked up by the RCAF as a country-wide prank, with the politicians on board from the git-go; I expect it all to go on and on, and get weirder and weirder, with RCAF providing "colour commentary" on the goings-on, and a feedback loop between the Air Farce's series-fade-out antics and actual happenings on Parliament Hill, only to have the whole lot of them appear on on RCAF's finale show on NYE to shout, "Suprise!" and give us the finger all at once.

Aloha,

Brad

Edited December 2, 2008 by Guest

[Birdy]

I'll play too. I would be acting the same as well, for all the same reasons. I by no means want to see a strong majority right-wing coalition, just as much as I don't want to see a strong majority left-wing coalition. And I don't want to see a coalition of either of the two supported by a separatist party.

[Birdy]

I figured it out. It all makes sense now.

Consider: Royal Canadian Air Farce is ending this fall. I speculate that this whole economic-update-leading-to-a-coalition business was cooked up by the RCAF as a country-wide prank, with the politicians on board from the git-go; I expect it all to go on and on, and get weirder and weirder, with RCAF providing "colour commentary" on the goings-on, and a feedback loop between the Air Farce's series-fade-out antics and actual happenings on Parliament Hill, only to have the whole lot of them appear on on RCAF's finale show on NYE to shout, "Suprise!" and give us the finger all at once.

Aloha,

Brad

hahaah... i hope it breaks out into a musical.

[M.O.B.E]

Where's Guy Fox when you need 'im?

Im right here...remember remember the 5th of December

[d_rawk]

Rex

All Politics, No Government

Rex Murphy Point of View

December 1, 2008

Political scientists will stagger gibbering witless to their graves trying to figure out why the Prime Minister decided to kick off a brand new session of a civil parliament, in the middle of a world economic crisis, by the most lethal partisan jab at the opposition in the history of Confederation.

It's either or. He's either dumb or arrogant. Those are the only options to explain why he pitched a live grenade into the underwear of the opposition parties last Thursday, within, as it were, five seconds of the new Session starting. Either too dumb to know the furies he was releasing, or too arrogant to care.

Either way, now we have an entirely artificial partisan showdown in Ottawa, and make no mistake, this is partisan warfare at its most intense, and nothing other, because Mr. Harper saw a series of belts, and decided he just had to deliver a vicious kick beneath all three of them.

We're in a crisis now, and it started with Mr. Harper, feeding his apparently insatiable appetite continuously to do in the Opposition, and abusing last Thursday's financial statement to kill the financing of his rivals.

That got their attention; and it's worth holding in mind, that without the effort to lop off their funding - not some other higher-minded issue - we wouldn't be where we are today. Don't accept the alibi that this crisis is about the financial statement itself. It was triggered by the threat to political funding.

But that's just the beginning of the most absurd and embarrassing train of political maneuvers to take place in a self-respecting country that I can recall.

For on the other side we have the almost unimaginable farce of a so-called Coalition, complete with its own signing ceremony, being concocted under the weirdest set of conditions in modern politics.

The latest bulletin has Stephane Dion installed as Prime Minister, a man who, after the 77 seats Mr. Dion brought home in the election, the Liberals couldn't wait to boot out of the leadership. They were speculating on it election night. Now, he is good enough to be Prime Minister.

Let's get a look at this. A party looking for a leader itself, wants to install the leader they're ejecting, as the country's leader.

But this farce is very much an improvisation in progress. There's been a round of consulting with Jean Chretien and other impresarios of our national destiny. Every crisis gets the think tank it deserves.

So we're to have a Coalition - not a political party be it noted - as our federal government. Enabled - key word - by - shield your children - the only dedicated separatist party in the House of Commons. Canada's federal government will owe its existence to the one party that doesn't want Canada to exist. When that happens, we've entered the terminal stages of national decline.

A federal government enabled by a separatist party is a contradiction in terms, in logic, and in national honour.

What this manufactured crisis demonstrates is that Canadian politics is not Canadian politics. It's partisan politics. Remember about 8 days ago, this was going to be the civil House of Commons. Yeah; and roses are blooming even as I speak in on the green lawns of Bonavista.

To call all this undignified is to give it too much dignity. What's going on in Ottawa today is pure madness, a scramble for advantage on all sides.

All politics. No government.

For The National, I'm Rex Murphy.

[Birdy]

But this farce is very much an improvisation in progress. There's been a round of consulting with Jean Chretien and other impresarios of our national destiny. Every crisis gets the think tank it deserves.

Hahah... awesome!

[d_rawk]

Hahaha, I'm glad you caught that line .. it took all I could muster to refrain myself from editorializing and adding in an [ohhh, snap!] after 'Every crisis gets the think tank is deserves' :laugh:

[The Chameleon]

Can we get a Coalition countdown clock here? Something like the McCain "no talk" express clock?

Can't wait, it's like having two x-mas's! Yippie!

[Birdy]

Bye-bye the rest of Canada! Hello Quebec!

Ducceppe sets conditions for collaboration

QUEBEC CITY, MONTREAL — Gilles Duceppe emerged Monday to sit side by side with Stéphane Dion, the author of the federal Clarity Act that defines the conditions that would allow Quebec to secede from Canada, adding a fresh layer to the political theatre surrounding talk of a coalition government.

Mr. Duceppe, the Bloc leader, said he would work with the Liberals and NDP, should they form the next government, for a period of 18 months, saying that would allow his party to maximize economic, social and environmental measures for Quebec.

But after that short-term timescale, support for any coalition would be tied to whether propping up a government in Ottawa for the full proposed 30 months could undermine his fight for sovereignty. A combined Conservative-Bloc vote would be greater than the number of seats held by the Liberals and NDP.

“Regardless of the divergent interests we may have with one another, we can achieve common goals without renouncing who we are.

"And by doing what I am doing I am advancing the cause for which I am in politics,†Mr. Duceppe said Monday.

To advance his cause he will have to tap-dance with Mr. Dion, the man most targeted by separatists for his fierce battle against the Quebec sovereignty movement.

Former party vice-president Hélène Alarie argued that getting rid of Stephen Harper's right-wing government was the priority. Everything else comes second.

“In an economic crisis you have to put forward the economy. In that respect Mr. Duceppe played his role to perfection,†Ms. Alarie said.

“But the Bloc will still have ammunition for the next election campaign. The differences over the future of the Quebec nation are too profound for it to be otherwise.â€

Parti Québécois Leader Pauline Marois said she believes Mr. Duceppe will guarantee the province's interests are on top of the agenda. She greeted the partnership as a means for Quebec to have its interests at centre-stage, blasting Liberal Leader Jean Charest for keeping his distance from the turmoil in Ottawa.

“If a coalition government allows us to accomplish certain things, it will be because there is a sovereigntist party in Ottawa standing up and defending Quebec's interests,†Ms. Marois said on the campaign trail Monday.

“If the Bloc can get things for Quebec while Mr. Charest is on his knees, it's Quebec that will emerge the winner.â€

The Bloc formed the Official Opposition in 1993.

With one week to go before election day on Dec. 8, the Quebec campaign has been blown off the front pages by the drama in Ottawa.

Mr. Charest stepped carefully through the issue Monday, pleading only for a quick resolution to the crisis so Ottawa can return to managing the economy.

During the federal campaign, Mr. Charest distanced himself from the Harper government and damaged the Conservative pursuit of a majority government by vigorously lobbying for a list of demands.

The demands were not answered by last week's economic update, but Mr. Charest is carefully avoiding criticizing anyone.

“It's a question federal political actors must answer,†Mr. Charest said.

“The choice of Oct. 14 was the democratic choice of each citizen, they chose to elect a minority government. I don't seek to shape the meaning of that choice.â€

Mr. Charest is using the turmoil to bolster his argument for a stable majority government in Quebec. His opponents point out he had a stable minority before he plunged the province into an election, aimed mainly at producing a majority.

Anyone heard anything from Danny Williams about this? I've read a bunch of stuff from other Premiers, but nothing from Danny. I wonder if he's happy that he might finally have gotten his 'anything but the Conservatives' victory, as such a cost.

[AD]

this whole thing is fucked. the Liberals are fucked, the Bloc is fucked, the Cons are definitely fucked, the economy is fucked, all the other issues that need to be talked about that are taking a backseat to this shit are fucked...

The NDP are happier than pigs in shit though - and they shouldn't be, because everything is fucked.

[AD]

so, Michaëlle Jean eh?

[Big Wooly Mammoth]

Well, upon hearing what Flaherty said about waiting for Obama, I totally agree and really think that makes sense.

First off, the reason that the U.S. must wait is because Obama is not yet president. Secondly, and far more important IMO, we are an independent country. There might be certain aspects of OUR stimulus package that would be influenced by the U.S. plan (specifically dealing with the auto sector), but in general we need a plan for Canada, that is independent of what our neigbours to the south decide to do. What we need now is strong fiscal policy ala Keynes. I don't really care what the U.S. decides to do. (well I do, cause of their influence on the global economy, but that's another story). We need a made in Canada package. We don't need the U.S. telling us which roads and bridges should be built.

Now, even more importantly. Who thinks that Harper is wearing a rug? I mean his hair never moves.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Guest

[Birdy]

Oh, I want a made in Canada package too. But to simply nudge away the US and (maybe?) insinuate that an auto sector package is the only thing worth waiting for, falls a little short imo. Ours is dependant on theirs on many, many levels. Unfortunately.

Here's a question - now that all of these concessions are met, aren't the strings that bind the coalition together, the same strings that we voted on 7 weeks ago? The same strings that saw the CP get re-elected?

The opposition leaders are accusing the CP of nothing new than that which they accused of them during the campaign.

Fucking democracy.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Guest

[Big Wooly Mammoth]

Harper has unleashed a real problem. meeting the concessions is no longer enough because he has shown his true self. and he has shown that HIS party cannot be trusted. That they are more interested in ideology and politics than the betterment of the country. This is not the Harper that emerged after the election. He actually had people warming up to him. and he has now potentially destroyed his political career. he has played to the hand of those that claim he has a hidden agenda. Some claim that the coalition partners are also now playing politics, but I'm not sure that I agree with that. Harper doesn't like playing with others, however you have to in a minority government. a lesson he has yet to learn. perhaps if the PC quickly elected a new leader, one that exhibits signs of playing nice in the sandbox, the coalition would no longer be seen as necessary. But until then, I think that the coalition is the best way forward. It's ugly either way. and that is the fault of Harper alone at the end of the day.

well, what about his hair??