Ottawa property tax goes up 4.9% in 2009. Your stupid arts festival saved.

[AD]

Thanks, but I was actually wondering if you guys were lacking any basic services.

you also mentioned tourism and 'this particular festival' which didn't make sense so i thought i'd post the list of what would have been affected. it's not one festival.

it's about quality of life. tourism (which I mentioned above just because it's easier to quantify) is the least of it. how many citizens are involved in something off that giant list up above? i'd say a healthy and cultured mind is a basic service.

to answer your question though, there are many places where funding is needed, such as infrastructure, child care, health services, etc. but the money needed for those programs is on such a larger scale. cutting the arts to fund a tiny percentage of one of those bigger items would leave a soulless city with some pretty spiffy sewers. fuck that.

[Thorgnor]

This city is a joke.

[Birdy]

to answer your question though, there are many places where funding is needed, such as infrastructure, child care, health services, etc. but the money needed for those programs is on such a larger scale. cutting the arts to fund a tiny percentage of one of those bigger items would leave a soulless city with some pretty spiffy sewers. fuÇk that.

Well, we'll see what happens with this whole recession/depression thing. Because if people don't have jobs and can't afford things, your city will be soulless with or without such 'miniscule' arts funding.

It's not just spiffy sewers though. It's ensuring public transportation costs are kept down, ensuring clean water supplies, delivering emergency services... all pretty important things that I think most would allow to take precedence over funding arts and culture. Shitty situation, I agree. But the whole world is in a shitty situation right now.

[Thorgnor]

You're right, we should probably stay the course.

[Birdy]

Knew you'd come around.

haha

Really though, this isn't staying the course. Staying the course would be not doing anything differently, at all.

[AD]

i don't think it's a shitty situation at all. the arts funding was saved. the city passed the budget with a small tax increase. hopefully the recession kickstarts some infrastructure funding and we can all be happy (until we look at our investments)

[Birdy]

and our jobs? and shitty demands from bosses like the one mentioned over in the OC transport thread?

a near 5% tax increase isn't such a small tax increase when you lose your job and your investments.

i don't mean to sound like i'm not a supporter of arts and culture. i'm just saying that times are pretty tough. if a 5% tax increase were to go down in Chatham, a lot of people would be pretty f'ed. it's peanuts to those who are happily employed, but increasing numbers of people aren't so happily employed anymore.

and if your council is in a position that it needs to hike taxes 5% to fund arts and culture, how much are they going to have to hike them even more to support infrastructure spending?

i see the benefits you talk of and agree with them, but i also think that there are limits to what can be done within any given point. it's a nice thought to be able to carpool and potluck, but it's a bit optimistic too in that you have somewhere to carpool to, and food to potluck with.

[Hux]

It's only money...they'll print more.

[AD]

Ottawa doesn't have it so bad....

jobs - yeah, that sucks. shitty demands from bosses - those will always exist. in oc transpo's case, they're going to strike over those demands.

you can't compare chatham and ottawa. apples and oranges. and yeah, people might be pissed about the 4.9%, but i'm not. i didn't speak for everyone. the 4.9% hike isn't to fund arts and culture - there are many many many other factors in there. read up on it.

i hate carpooling and most potlucks are heavy on the appetizers and lean on the mains, so fuck that too. not sure where you were going with that point.

[Birdy]

just referencing something said above.

well, you agree that job loss sucks, that some people might be pissed about the tax hike, and i hope you can see how unions have been failing across north america, so yah... while you don't speak for everyone, you support something that will affect everyone, and quite possibly, fuck some of that 'everyone' over.

i'll read up on it, you have me there.

[Booche]

i don't think it's a shitty situation at all.

Do you own property?

It's pretty easy to think that Arts should never be cut (I never thought I could be this guy) but who incures those costs? Let me tell you my friend, you will some day. The business generated by tourism is great but we are all paying for it in the long run. Higher property taxes afflict them as well and I love what I get to see in this city as far as culture is concerned.

But would I rather my tax dollars go towards a proper cleaning on my street during a snow storm?

YouarefuckingrightIwould and it aint because I am worried my car wouldnt make it out of the driveway. It's because I dont want to see some old fugger laying knee deep in the snow with a broken hip.

Would you want to see me in that position?

That's a question for another day. The older I get the more I question these tax dollars. They aint fake. Does Bluesfest really need the hundred grand they get from the city?

I dont know but I am guessing they dont. Creatively find corporate dollars whoever you are. That's the key. Dont just 'expect' to get funding. Please keep in mind that I lived around the corner from the Lebanese Festival on Springland (whatever it is called) and I pray they never end.

[ForbinHood]

i don't think it's a shitty situation at all.

But would I rather my tax dollars go towards a proper cleaning on my street during a snow storm?

YouarefuckingrightIwould and it aint because I am worried my car wouldnt make it out of the driveway. It's because I dont want to see some old fugger laying knee deep in the snow with a broken hip. quote]

This is probably one of the nicest things I've ever seen you write... and smart too.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Guest

[allison]

Do you own property?

Tenants absorb property tax increases in their rent..so not quite relevant.

(following not directed at Booche)

Also...on average you are talking maybe a 150$ increase per year.Little over 10$.Thats gonna kill you? Ok..maybe you would rather give have 1.7 extra drinks at the bar per month...but really...outrage over 10$?

It's pretty easy to think that Arts should never be cut

I doubt anybody except the hysterics is arguing that.Sometimes they have to be...but not just because it is the quickest solution.Ottawa has some pretty systemic problems with putting together a budget.They should have been hiking taxes years back.

But would I rather my tax dollars go towards a proper cleaning on my street during a snow storm?

Was there an argument to fund arts OVER infrastructure?

Does Bluesfest really need the hundred grand they get from the city?

Maybe . Maybe not.Bluesfest is largely "popular" entertainment and has resources I can guarantee smaller oranizations do not. Corporate sponsorship can be a double edged sword...soon enough you have to start making decisions that affect artistic integrity in order to stay fiscally viable. Is that ok?

With all the talk of lost jobs...ummm..hey folks people work in Arts and Culture.Lots of them.

And on a personal level..are likely less able to afford the tax cut then many others. The average arts administrator makes a good 15-20 g's less that their equivalently educated counterparts AND has to volunteer an average of 10 hours a week as part of the unsaid job description.

[AD]

Do you own property?

no, i rent and pay property taxes as part of my rent.

who incures those costs? Let me tell you my friend, you will some day.

and i do right now, and i'm ok with that.

But would I rather my tax dollars go towards a proper cleaning on my street during a snow storm?

snow-clearing / whatever other large cause you want to put in there and cultural funding aren't mutually exclusive.

Does Bluesfest really need the hundred grand they get from the city?

why does everyone focus on bluesfest? there are HUNDREDS of other groups that would have been affected. did you see the list i posted? also, maybe bluesfest does need that hundred grand. in many cases other potential sponsors / 'funders' will only pony up cash once the municipality has. so that hundred grand from the city might bring in a million from other levels of government or private sponsors.

for the small community choir that gets 5 grand or something piddly like that, why don't you go tell them that you want to take that away from them?

Dont just 'expect' to get funding

i don't think anyone does. it'd be nice to have a city council (and citizens for that matter) that give a shit about more than the bottom line.

tough economic times, when could culture be MORE important??

[Birdy]

Perhaps a bit of the problem is that people who work in some other sectors don't get government funding to keep their jobs afloat, whereas those in A&C do?

Is it fair to say that some of the people who mention A&C should get government funding because people work in A&C are the same people who in the next breath say the auto-sector shouldn't get a government bailout?

Also...on average you are talking maybe a 150$ increase per year.Little over 10$.Thats gonna kill you? Ok..maybe you would rather give have 1.7 extra drinks at the bar per month...but really...outrage over 10$?

I remember when I first moved out to Vancouver, I literally had absolutely nothing other than a toaster, a futon on the ground and a tv with no cable. All given to me. I spent all of the money I moved out there with on first and last months rent. I must have read the same book about King Arthur 30 times by the light of the fuzz on the tv. I counted pennies to buy jam and bread and lived off toast for breakfast, lunch and dinner. A month later I found a job, and then I went to a bargain store and bought myself pots and pans. I had to call in 'can't afford to take the bus to work today' numerous times. At one point, my mom deposited $100 in my bank account and I bawled my eyes out. Your drink comment could be offensive.

[Booche]

I'm drunk and angry even though Les Brahs won.

Was there an argument to fund arts OVER infrastructure?

I was under the assumption there was. That's my issue.

[AD]

Perhaps a bit of the problem is that people who work in some other sectors don't get government funding to keep their jobs afloat, whereas those in A&C do?

Could you elaborate? Pick an Ottawa arts group off the list I posted that the city is paying salary to to keep a job afloat. Maybe there are a few, sure, but I definitely think the majority of the funding in question went to volunteer-run organizations. What's wrong with that?

Is it fair to say that some of the people who mention A&C should get government funding because people work in A&C are the same people who in the next breath say the auto-sector shouldn't get a government bailout?

No, it's not fair but it's not an appropriate comparison either. Apples and oranges, again.

[Booche]

when could culture be MORE important??

I love that. I really do. Please keep in mind that I am going to absord these additional costs because I want my city to be different than others but it's fucking tough.

I cant even imagine what my neighbourhood thinks right now. They have to be infuriated.

[Birdy]

I was replying to Allison about the jobs AD.

And how is it apples and oranges when both supply jobs and both ask for government funding?

[Guest Low Roller]

My deed for today is done (instigate arguments). I'm going to bed.

[d_rawk]

It's only money...they'll print more.

Best post in the thread Funny, for my arch-nemesis, I sure do feel onside with you sometimes (shame about the coalition not going through, we could have been brothers in arms for awhile)

Tenants absorb property tax increases in their rent

Thank you allison! That's what I wanted to say, but it would have taken me 100 words to get there.

[AD]

And how is it apples and oranges when both supply jobs and both ask for government funding?

are you really asking how the provincial auto sector is different than local ottawa arts groups?

[allison]

And how is it apples and oranges when both supply jobs and both ask for government funding?

Well...

The auto industry is has a quantifiable product produced by PRIVATE companies who arguably derailed their viabilty due to lack of proper management and market responsiveness ( oh ya...and greed.)

Arts and culture of organizations supported by government are NOT FOR PROFIT, and while they must pay attention to resiliency, responsiveness and relevancy, do not often have a "product" that can be quantified in market place terms..except usually as a "benefit" they confer on to others.

So...a point could made that the manifest impact to the person now NOT working for either sector could be the same...to extend that logic as applied to government spending is to say that we should publicly fund anything where to not do so would mean someone losing a job.Bullshit.

And yes...10$ a month is a lot at times, and to shrug it off is quite offensive in some applications. Absolutley.

But as , by and large, those who post on this Board can come up with what to many would be ridiculous, to some obscene , amounts of loot to go a Neil concert or Langerado...or whatever, I would hazard a guess its not too ridiculous a point.

[d_rawk]

The auto industry is has a quantifiable product produced by PRIVATE companies

Silly nitpick quible - they are PUBLIC companies, and as such you are able to take on as much ownership of them as you like or can afford.

[allison]

Whoops...d-jango is right as (mostly ) usual.

I meant more that they are for profit.Should have used that term instead!