Emery is heading south

[Hartamophone]

Tommy got nailed due to his "celebrity."

My point is that the same thing happened to Marc Emery. He waved and wagged it in everyone's face. It was only a matter of time and we all knew.

so did Henry Morgantaler. and although he went to jail for a few months in the 70s (altho' subsequently acquitted) back when canada was still backwards' date=' [b']he was never extradited to the US for continuing to perform abortions on american women who came to his clinics in canada.

I don't think that that is an appropriate analogy. Morgantaler was operating entirely in Canada. At no point was he under U.S. jurisdiction, and since he's not a U.S. citizen, not even the broadest of American laws could have touched him.

Emery, on the other hand, was mailing his seeds to the U.S. There's a big, big difference there.

[tigger]

I love pot.....

[SaggyBalls]

(don't worry...there will be a break to let you know where the 'bloat' starts)

"While I may not agree with the laws, I think Emery had it coming to him. " - Hartamophone

Hear Hear.

Arguments on both sides (use of the postal system, the charges' relative near-legality, taxed income, our lax regulations, and the culpability of the American Buyers over Emery among others) do nothing to move us forward on this issue.

Of the $million$ Emery made from his sales of seeds (among other things) I would seriously doubt that the vast majority of it went to advocacy groups and helping out the little guy. These networks were little more than PR/Advertising for his business and the business that drives his business.

Though it's laughable to suggest that Emery's rise was clean and spotless, this story - just as the Roman Polanski deportation which broke on the news today - have a lot in common.

Both are a huge waste of time and money for zero impact on public safety and decency.

(stop reading here if you're not into reading 'bloated' posts)

Since it's really not coming from guys like Emery, Where is the change going to come from?

How can we make a positive impact on our communities with Marijuana? Until there's a significant benefit then the naysayers/drug-control arguers won't have any reason to budge.

Is it going to come through agribusiness?

With the relative non-existance of hemp processing facilities in Canada, it (at this point) would be a significant stimulus to a surrounding community in the creation and staffing of said facilities, but even then there are so few farmers that it's sort of a catch 22

...and forget about useful things like food seeds, fuels, plastics, and textiles - that's not even the huge cash crop of Marijuana which, if taxed properly, would create giant budgetary surpluses that would support us in everything we could ever need from a socialist utopia (or start paying down our ridulous debt (or move toward both)).

Is it going to come through Hospice and medical initiatives?

Medical Marijuana clubs could really change the way this 'drug' is seen (no I'm not talking about smoke-easys, but if set up properly, why not? The Amsterdam Cafe in Vancouver's really nice) by the rest of the community, but this seems like a bit of a stretch.

Is it going to require pot heads getting outside and being both active and visible puffing tuff?

If we're in a hurry about it...too bad the weather's getting cold, cause potheads dig comfort. But what am I talking about...they still have to be outside as much as the rest of us. Look at how many people smoke tobacco outside.

Maybe more people will need to sell weed (and keep tax records) to show how they turned their lives around with the help of a thriving weed economy?

At the very least, a food service that sells 'happy treats' (infused oils and fats for baking and condiments, wellness tinctures, chocolates and confectionaries, etc) should come out of this, and could easily be started & kept going on this alone (without the need to sell it as a 'drug' but as a foodstuff).

The trick would be to keep it going for a long period without legal 'intervention'...online sales with credit card and paypal ordering?

I'm curious if this would even work like squatters' rights. Maybe it would have to be run in conjunction with a Medical Marijuana Club, to keep the proprietors away from any sort of culpability.

Maybe it's going to get citizens to stop taking lawmakers' bullying when it comes to their personal liberties and freedom. Do potheads vote and call their MPs and write letters?

What about Business taxes? If one were to set him/herself up as a limited liability corporation, work at their jobs/get hired as 'the corporation' and bank all of his/her assets in 'the corporation' (grossly underpay themselves while living off 'petty cash'? Company credit?), would there be a way to avoid paying personal business taxes?

I'm definitely not knowledgeable about stuff like this but am I at least close to being onto something?

Could it take potheads being super smart with their personal business to get around paying taxes to get politicians to change their ways?

Starting our own companies to provide tasty munchies and clothing/lifestyle companies for us to support to keep profits from lobbying against our ideals? It sort of feels like some kind of 'Hippy Mafia' sort of deal with the way I put it across, but there must be some way to fully legitimize it in time.

[nibbler]

... I think one of the main reasons this is so lame is because marijuana really should be legal in the first place.

I don't think it's fair that they are using Marc as the scape goat of it all.

I saw Marc here in Hamilton, He's not perfect but I still support him and believe he should not go to jail.

He won't be remembered by most for it, but Jean Chretien was steadfastly moving towards decriminalization and legalization in the late 90's and through the millennium. Emery rode that wave- knowing that selling seeds which themselves had no measurable THC in them was LEGAL in Canada.

By 2002 the Canadian senate had released a report calling for the legalization and regulation for ALL illicit drugs in Canada-

However the wave was bound to crash after the 911 coup when a questionable line suggesting that all illicit drugs fund terrorism was rammed into our heads.

Had Chretien not been ousted- he would have had Emery's back on this case. Ousting is what he gets for standing up to the bully and trying to save a great country from annexation.

Conspiracy to grow is what Emery gets for trying to help overgrow a sick nation's sick drug policy- a policy which does a lot more to plant seeds of terrorism than a bag of pot seeds ever could.

and there was no one left to notice... when they came for us

[nibbler]

On the lighter side- what is conspiracy to manufacture marijuana anyways? pot's a weed- its not "man made"- the shit grows itself!

Up until the extradition, the media and most people had forgotten all about Emery- but now it seems to be quite the PR winfall for him and the NORML movement in general.

[phishtaper]

I don't think that that is an appropriate analogy. Morgantaler was operating entirely in Canada. At no point was he under U.S. jurisdiction, and since he's not a U.S. citizen, not even the broadest of American laws could have touched him.

Emery, on the other hand, was mailing his seeds to the U.S. There's a big, big difference there.

I agree, it's not a perfect comparison but I do think that US lawmakers did express great interest in the Morgantaler case in the 70s because almost all forms of abortion were still very illegal in many States at that time and American women were traveling north for the procedure. Moreover, Bush Sr. did indicate when running for the Whitehouse in '88 that he was not adverse to extraditing American women who went to Canada and Europe to have abortions performed as well as the doctors who performed the procedures and prosecuting them under US law. Did it happen? I do not think so. Would it happen? Probably not. But one would not really have imagine that the Canadian government would be complicit in violating the rights of a Canadian citizen to appease an insane drug policy of another country as it did in Emory's case.

[Guest Low Roller]

His wife said something incredibly stupid yesterday that probably made all his lawyers cringe:

Mark openly broke the law in order to challenge it.

Sounds like an admission of guilt to me. Sure makes the judge's job easy. Idiot.

[ollie]

Is anyone questioning his guilt?

[Hartamophone]

I don't think that that is an appropriate analogy. Morgantaler was operating entirely in Canada. At no point was he under U.S. jurisdiction' date=' and since he's not a U.S. citizen, not even the broadest of American laws could have touched him.

Emery, on the other hand, was mailing his seeds to the U.S. There's a big, big difference there.[/quote']

I agree, it's not a perfect comparison but I do think that US lawmakers did express great interest in the Morgantaler case in the 70s because almost all forms of abortion were still very illegal in many States at that time and American women were traveling north for the procedure. Moreover, Bush Sr. did indicate when running for the Whitehouse in '88 that he was not adverse to extraditing American women who went to Canada and Europe to have abortions performed as well as the doctors who performed the procedures and prosecuting them under US law. Did it happen? I do not think so. Would it happen? Probably not. But one would not really have imagine that the Canadian government would be complicit in violating the rights of a Canadian citizen to appease an insane drug policy of another country as it did in Emory's case.

That's just it, though. We're talking about idle tough-guy talk from lawmen and an empty campaign promise from a high-level politician. Prosecuting Morgantaler in the U.S. for something he did legally in Canada as a Canadian citizen would never fly under international law. Emery was very clearly operating within American jurisdiction, which is what landed him in trouble.

[Big Wooly Mammoth]

Tommy Chong was brought up earlier on. Watch AKA Tommy Chong. A great documentary on the ridiculous case against him. very well done. and frightening. I DLd it via bittorrent a few weeks ago.

[phishtaper]

Emery was very clearly operating within American jurisdiction, which is what landed him in trouble.

was he? he never set foot in the us, or did he? is simply dropping a letter in a mailbox in british columbia considered "operating within american jurisdiction"? sure, presumably the letter had an american address on it but does that necessarily make it fall under american law? i dunno. you seem to know more, im just asking.

[Hartamophone]

I am confidently assuming that once you send something into the United States, with the intent that it will end up there, then you are operating within their jursidiction and can be subject to extradition, where possible. I don't think it is seen as much different from physically smuggling something in yourself.

I am also assuming that he advertised or distributed literature in the United States, which might be how they got him. I am not sure of what the specific charges are.

[dancingbear]

Of the $million$ Emery made from his sales of seeds (among other things) I would seriously doubt that the vast majority of it went to advocacy groups and helping out the little guy. These networks were little more than PR/Advertising for his business and the business that drives his business.

i do know when talking with the guy who owned the head shop in st. john's, he said emery gave him some money to help start up.

[Velvet]

Chris Clay in London, ON got lots of money for his legal defense from Emery too.

[ollie]

Chris Clay in London, ON got lots of money for his legal defense from Emery too.

I'm still hoping to cash my cannabis bond one day.

[AD]

people have used the phrases 'very illegal' and 'nearly legal' in this thread. i think that's interesting.

[Esau.]

I dunno how many folks read his blog, but, in his own words, this is why he made the deal with the US for the time & charges he's recieving. I guess it doesn't explain a whole lot in terms of the discussion ya'll are having here (eg: US jurisdiction and USPS etc), but I found it to be an interesting read and figured it was worth posting.

From June 2009

Why I'm Cutting A Deal

by Marc Emery - Thursday, June 11 2009

In the end, my lawyer, a wily and shrewd man named Ian Donaldson, said he just wouldn’t do it. He wouldn’t be the lawyer of record at any Extradition hearing for Marc Emery.

It wasn’t about money - Ian has charged me next to nothing over 4 years, less than $20,000 - and it wasn’t for lack of caring either. He said there just isn’t any way to beat the Extradition. As he told the CBC, “I am unaware of any situation since the 1990’s when the Canadian government has refused an Extradition Request of the United States.â€

Ian had always hoped that the assistant US District Attorney of Western Washington state, a young, handsome and politically ambitious man named Todd Greenburg, would offer a plea deal that would be the best outcome under the circumstances. Earlier this year, my two co-accused, Greg Williams and Michelle Rainey, agreed to plead guilty to a charge of distributing marijuana and are expecting to receive a sentence of two years probation. This is considerably less than what had been anticipated earlier, when jail terms of 5 or 10 years or longer were threatened.

As late as last April, I was agreeing to be sentenced to 5 years, at first in a US jail, and then with most time to be served in Canada. The US District Attorney and I had a deal, but the Canadian Prosecutorial Service, at the request of Rob Nicholson, the Canadian Justice Minister, nixed it last May. The explanation was that the Conservative government wanted to do me no favours.

I have always thought the Conservative government, since taking power in January 2006, has been politicizing the judiciary and law enforcement to take a more severe and punitive approach to the marijuana culture. They see it as a culture war, and Bill C-15 passing the House of Commons a few days ago is the most blatant salvo in the Conservative War on the Cities and the Sixties at the same time.

The Cities are where the gang violence that stems from drug prohibition happens. The Cities are where policing budgets are escalating and unsustainable. They are where the addicts go to get prohibited drugs from gangs, and they're where they steal and beg to finance their addiction. They are where the women prostitute themselves for drugs. The Cities bear the scars of social disorder caused by drug prohibition. Bill C-15 is going to make every person - every teenager and young adult - who sells some pot or MDMA to a few friends in a school yard or near a playground, or at a rave (“any place frequented by young peopleâ€), subject to mandatory jail times of 6 months, a year, two years or longer. Repeat offenders are dealt with even more harshly.

Mid- and high-level drug dealers already get 6 months or more when convicted, so the new minimums do not affect the bosses who make the large-scale decisions and big money. Instead, this bill targets kids, junkies, weed dealers and small time growers with shell-shocking punishments on an unprecedented scale. It costs about $50,000 to $90,000 a year to house an inmate in Canada, depending on whether it’s a provincial jail or federal prison. How will we afford this and will it be worth it?

Organized gangs dominate prisons in Canada and the US with a full gang apparatus inside the jail as well as outside in the community. In order to use phones, get jobs, privileges, avoid trouble, not get beat up or raped, new, young (“virginâ€) inmates convicted of drug charges will be pressured to join a gang in jail. Jails are the #1 recruitment place for all gangs in Canada. In fact, the deadly and volatile Red Scorpions gang, allegedly responsible for considerable gang mayhem in Metro Vancouver, formed in the jails of the lower mainland of BC.

The more we enforce the drug war with jail time for young dealers, the more violence we manufacture. The more we enforce the drug war and send kids to jail, the more we enrich gangs and gang activity. When a young person recruited to a gang in prison gets after 6 months, a year or two years, he will then be expected to continue gang activities on the outside. The more we enforce the drug war with jail, the more gangsters and dangerous criminals we manufacture. Or rather, the politicians and police manufacture, as they are virtually the exclusive beneficiaries of the drug war - along with judges, jailers and top-level gangsters. In 2008, over 350 Vancouver police earned over $100,000 in overtime spent enforcing the drug war.

So while I contemplate spending time in a US federal prison for spreading cannabis culture to the masses of the United States, I now know that my own country may be about to descend upon the same painful and wrong-headed policy that is drawing me to a US prison, a rapacious incarceration scheme that makes the US the most jailed place on earth.

Now Canada is prepared to make every single marijuana grower in Canada subject to a minimum six months jail, eviction and forfeiture, and loss of children and employment. Cocaine and heroin users who sell illicit drugs to pay for their own use and those who carry and transport will to jail. Under pressure, they will implicate others. This will fill prisons and also insure long, expensive court trials, as the accused will no longer plead guilty if jail is mandatory. The price of marijuana and other illicit substances will go up sharply due to the tremendous rise in risk, and there will be violent turf wars over replacing those who are arrested and jailed, as the money involved becomes even more lucrative.

The problems will all worsen - and then next year the police, and the politicians of the Liberal and Conservative Parties will demand more prisoners, more punishments, more laws, more police, and more taxpayer largesse to pay for what is clearly cruel, unsustainable, and morally unjustifiable. Drug users are not the problem, prohibition is.

As for me, I’m going to plead guilty in a Seattle courtroom sometime in August to one count of distributing marijuana. I will likely be sentenced in September or October.

I am doing this because my lawyer framed my options thusly: To challenge the extradition would be a lost cause and result in my extradition to Seattle to stand trial on three counts: conspiracy to manufacture, conspiracy to distribute, and conspiracy to money launder. Even waiting for my trial in Sea-Tac jail would take approximately 6 months to a year. Sentencing on the money laundering involves a mandatory minimum 10 years in federal prison. It also comes with the possibility of a substantial financial penalty, perhaps as high as $250,000 or up to $1 million in fines. If there is a financial penalty attached to my conviction, I cannot be transferred to a Canadian prison while any amount owing is outstanding. To challenge all three charges involves a potential jail time of 10 years plus 5 years plus 5 years plus $250,000 or more in fines.

On the charge of marijuana distribution I will plead to, the Assistant DA, Mr. Greenburg, is going to be asking for 5 – 8 years. My lawyers will ask for less, much less, in punishment, but it's likely to be a stint in a US federal prison.

I would have some very good arguments in my favor at a sentencing hearing: I did all my activities openly, transparently, paid taxes on earnings in full view of all Canadians for ten years. I had clear political motives, gave away over $4,000,000 to the movement in that ten years, and there are no victims here.

Upon my conviction, my wife Jodie will organize a campaign to have me transferred back to a Canadian jail - if transferred my sentence would reflect Canadian rules of release, so a 5-year sentence may see me released after a few years to day parole.

During my incarceration, I expect all my friends and supporters across Canada and the US and around the world to assist Jodie in the difficult task of running CannabisCulture.com and the Cannabis Culture Headquarters. The store, website, The BCMP offices, Pot.TV will all continue in my absence. Your financial support of our enterprises that have had such a huge impact on the cannabis culture around the world for the last 20 years will be required. Updates and further developments will be found on POT.TV and CannabisCulture.com.

In anticipation of these changes, Jodie and I are embarking on a tour of Canada beginning July 5 in Calgary, and will cover all major cities in Canada by mid August. If you want me to visit your hometown to speak, we require $500 so we can book airfare and a hotel room. Once that is done, we will indicate that city and venue are confirmed.

Once we are confirmed, my host would need to find a venue for us to speak. I would prefer to speak outdoors in a park or pavilion during the day, and in a library or hall in the evenings (no pubs or bars). I need a microphone for more than 50 people. My speech is typically 2 – 3 hours plus questions.

For details about the Farewell Tour, please go here: http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/content/marc-emerys-farewell-canada-tour

Contact Marc Emery at

marc@cannabisculture.com

604.689.0590 or 604.685.8260 or Jodie’s cell phone at 604.818.4201

http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/node/18283

[bagochips]

I`m not going to get into this debate too much, I just don`t have the time right now. Here a few points to consider though.

Marc has openly admitted to breaking U.S. law on many occasions. The man has a bit of a messiah complex and has long been expecting to go to jail in the States. It`s almost like he has been looking forward to it.

And yes, he has been paying taxes on his business for years, but he certainly has not been paying taxes on all his income. He was pretty openly dealing weed for a long while in Van, not just selling seeds.

He has been breaking the law for a long time, and his time has finally come. I still would rather see him not go to jail. Hell, I would far sooner see the laws change completely. Pot should be legal. But even under Obama there is no chance of that happening on a federal level in the United States any time soon.

The book Bud Inc. deals with Emery in great detail, as well as the entire B.C. bud industry. It`s a great read and highly recommended.

[tigger]

The Red light in Amsterdam got started by people like Emery selling small amounts until it is what it is today.

[Velvet]

The US could extradite all the seed merchants in Amsterdam that ship the the US as well, given that pot remains illegal throughout the Netherlands.

The Red light in Amsterdam got started by people like Emery selling small amounts until it is what it is today.

Bing.

I knew when I started this thread that there was gonna be a bit of he-got-what-was-coming because of the points Rico mentioned, and it's a valid stance.

That said, in my experience the Amsterdam approach is the best I've seen, and Canada would do well to at least emulate it. As we all know, pot is against the law in Amsterdam and it took people like Emery to make it what it is. This could have been a pivitol point in the struggle, and (one never knows) it could still be. Going uber-uber-hypothetical, say there was a huge movement that rose up around this very issue and it was enough to draw a major political party into fray. What then? When Ross Robliati(sp?) was busted at the Olympics Canada pretty much collectively said, "it's just a little pot," and with the right issue at the right time, Canada might be ready to agree that changes should be made.

And isn't that enough to get behind this guy? He might not be The Guy That Makes It Happen, but that Guy might be watching to see how this goes before sticking his neck out there.

[SaggyBalls]

Thanks for Posting that, Esau!

[nibbler]

The book Bud Inc. deals with Emery in great detail, as well as the entire B.C. bud industry. It`s a great read and highly recommended.

I second this notion- written: not by a pothead- but by an economist if I remember right. If only I wasnt such a burnout and could remember who I loaned it to...