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H1N1 - To Vaccinate or Not to Vaccinate


PMatt

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I heard that prisoners in Ontario jails are forced into getting jacked up with the shot- but the shots for the guards have all been cancelled...

FYI SUN Media has recently pulled this story off their website- Hmm.. I wonder why?

"Cons to get shots, but not guards

Decision to snub staff 'ridiculous'

By SUN MEDIA

Last Updated: 30th October 2009, 4:55am

Inmates at Ontario jails and correctional centres will be vaccinated for the swine flu Monday, while the guards protecting them have been told their clinics have been cancelled, the Sun has learned.

"This puts us at risk," says Matthew Duffy, an officer at the Toronto West Detention Centre who's a shop steward for OPSEU Local 517 and a "wellness" representative.

"They've told us they are holding a clinic for the inmates Monday, Nov. 1, but not one for us? It's ridiculous," he said yesterday.

The decision to take care of the health concerns of the inmates and not the officers is "insulting," Duffy said.

'POOR TURNOUT'

To suggest the clinics were cancelled because "there was poor turnout" in other years is ludicrous, he said.

"I mean this year there's a pandemic, isn't there?" Duffy said. "It's a little different."

And to add insult to injury, he said, the guards will be part of the security for the clinic.

"They want us to help put the clinic on and we're not getting the vaccine?" said Duffy, a 23-year veteran. "We have pregnant women on the job. It's not right."

The correctional services ministry couldn't be reached for comment last night.

MEMO

A memo sent to staff said the decision to not give flu shots to staff was based on poor turnout in other years.

"[color:red]While inmates will be vaccinated at all institutions, the decision was made to not hold staff vaccination clinics at institutions this year due to the small uptake by staff in previous years," says the memorandum from Loretta Eley, of the Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services.

Also, a memo from Nancy Ogden, a nurse adviser in the ministry states: "Over the last three years of collecting data on our flu clinics, it was identified that in the majority of facilities that conducted flu clinics the employee turnout was poor and some cited this as 'disappointing,' not cost effective, etc."

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I tend to think that people that are wary of over or unnecessarily 'medicating' themselves are not so much conspiracy theorists as they are people who have some doubt as to the wisdom of the myriads of chemicals and toxins we pump into ourselves by various means.

We all pick our poison to some degree...unless the government forces us of course.

It is not hard for some to have less than complete faith in our government and pharmaceutical corporations' judgment in these matters.

There are plenty of doctors and scientists on either side of this issue....just like there are experts here on either side....

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I heard that prisoners in Ontario jails are forced into getting jacked up with the shot- but the shots for the guards have all been cancelled...

FYI SUN Media has recently pulled this story off their website- Hmm.. I wonder why?

I was referring to this post regarding the Sun pulling a story from their site. What does that have to do with anything?

Oh and here's the story: http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/10/30/11575836-sun.html

It's still on the Toronto Sun's site.

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But since the vast majority of people who are vaccinated don't develop autism, this "interesting tidbit" isn't proof of anything. Correlation is not causation. Furthermore, there are many possible reasons for the significant upswing in autism cases - including the fact that the condition is much more easily diagnosed these days. Fifty years ago, these people were simple labelled "weird" or "not right in the head". The situation is similar to Alzheimer's; I'm sure many cases of Alzheimer's were written off as senility or dementia back when we didn't know anything about the disease. Using your logic, I could just as easily say that vaccines cause Alzheimer's.

That's exactly why it's only worth noting and not 'proof'.

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I'm just wondering if YoursTruly is a medical doctor/health professional/someone on the inside/scientist/someone who just really doesn't like flu shots and likes finding tidbits on the web from whatever source is available?

I'm certainly not going to 'whatever source is available'.

I haven't really touched on the conspiracy angles, nor have I sunken to the levels of other right wing quackery.

Not a health professional, have been dealing with health concerns for quite some time, and am currently experiencing benefit from every alternative approach that I've been told holds no water by doctors and specialists.

When I'd ask 'what about _________', been told to not pursue it. I finally got fed up and ignored their position and feel much less awful.

My position is this: There is evidence that vaccinations have caused people more harm than good, while there is no evidence that not getting the flu shot has caused anyone harm, as many people that get the flu shot still contract influenza.

Mass influenza is symptomatic of overall poor health. We stretch ourselves thin and take poorer care of ourselves than ever before, and think some miracle shot will stop it all.

How many people really (i MEAN really) clean their house/apartment?

One could suggest that the flu shot may help stave off infection, but since the chance to contract the virus remains and the Flu Vaccine contains neurotoxins and other poisons, I wonder why so many people think that logic demands that people side with the vaccination on this 'issue'.

One would have a much better chance of dealing with this issue by ensuring themselves and their family/roommates are properly hydrated, fed, and stress-free than by taking a flu shot.

If your immune defense is low enough to get H1N1 then you're going to get it one way or another.

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I don't get it. What conspiracy does the prison guard story play in to?

Look here, folks . . . dis only fo yo own protexium! Once we gets rollin' heah, things be happnin' all over de place dat could prove dangerous to persons not previously acquainted wit de SAN QUENTIM MASH- POTATOES!

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Flu vaccines don't work 100% of the time, PT.

There's of course the chance that Evan may have not contracted influenza after getting vaccinated, but that goes both ways and it's arguably safer to say that he would have got sick anyway.

When the core strategy is vaccination - 'fighting' the disease - and not ensuring that people are less unwell/healthier overall, then vaccinations in all likelihood won't matter in the end and we

will be worse off in the long run for it.

People die from the flu. This flu is hard on those with little exposure to influenza (kids especially) and that is sad.

Is it sad enough to make particularly poor decisions? It seems so.

Of course, me pointing out that these decisions are poor makes me ignorant.

PT: You have your superstitious faith in modern medicine.

I have my own personal experience to learn from when it comes to modern medicine and from that have very little faith in the approach of modern medicine.

Where there is no incontrovertible proof that flu vaccines work besides cohort studies, I remain 'ignorant' for noting this?

I am not being any more ignorant than people that blindly trust vaccines.

Cohort studies compare the death rates of large groups of people who received the vaccine to large groups of people who did NOT receive the vaccine. But there's a fatal flaw in this approach: People self-select for vaccinations. And what kind of people? As it turns out: People who take more precautions with their health!

[Thus, you automatically have a situation where the more health-cautious people are getting the vaccines because they THINK it's good for them. Meanwhile all the masses of people who don't give a darn about their health tend to skip the seasonal flu vaccines. And these people tend to not take very good of their health in lots of other ways. In other words, in terms of the masses, people who get vaccines are more likely to avoid junk food and live a more health-cautious lifestyle. This explains the differences in the death rates between the two groups! It has nothing to do with the vaccine...]

• Lisa Jackson...and three other researchers began to study the widely-quoted vaccine statistics in an attempt to identify this "healthy user effect," if any. They looked through eight years of medical data covering 72,000 people aged 65 or older and recorded who received flu shots and who didn't. Then they compared the death rates for all causes outside the flu season.

The vaccine made no difference in mortality

• What she found blows a hole right through the vaccination industry: She found that even outside the flu season, the death rate was 60 percent higher among those who did not get vaccines than among those who do. [in other words, even when you take the flu season completely out of the equation, elderly people who don't get vaccines have other lifestyle factors that makes them far more likely to die from lots of other causes.]

• She also found that this so-called "healthy user effect" explains the entire apparent benefit that continues to be attributed to vaccines. This finding demonstrates that the flu vaccine may not have any beneficial effect whatsoever in reducing mortality.

• How well done were these particular studies? Quoted from the story: Jackson's papers "are beautiful," says Lone Simonsen, who is a professor of global health at George Washington University, in Washington, D.C., and an internationally recognized expert in influenza and vaccine epidemiology. "They are classic studies in epidemiology, they are so carefully done."

- M. Adams

Edited by Guest
It's all about the approach.
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I agree mostly with YT. The medical industry should be there to fix up things like broken arms and getting hit by a bus. Being healthy is there to protect us from things such as disease. Watch food matters for some information on good eating (mostly a common sense movie that in this day and age would most likely be labeled conspiracy theory, while said label-er wolf's down a mcdeath burger).

People jump to drugs at the first sign of anything and then go home and eat kraft dinner and wonder why they keep getting sick.

I've never had a flu shot and most likely never will unless forced. Hell, I think I have swine flu right now as I type this, we shall see. Either way, for lunch I'll have some pureed squash/corn/parsnip/cream soup and something equally as healthy tonight for dinner (and every day/night). Drink lots of water, eat some fruit and probably be just fine.

Put high octane gas in your car and it will zoom. Piss in the gas tank and it will get "sick" yet we piss down our own throats all the time and fix it with needles and shit.

Flame me all you want but again, I agree with YT in that prevention (good health and hygiene) should be the main thing our health dollars get spent on, not one hit wonders that will be useless come spring when H1N1 becomes H2N1 (unless that's already been around).

Word.

Edit: Swine flue virus takes about 10 days to kick in full immunity. It's not available until Nov 5 (unless you're an asshole who got it in line with kids and pregnant ladies and didn't wait the recommended time) so I wouldn't have been able to get it anyway since it will be gone out of my community before the vaccine even kicks in...

Edited by Guest
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re that vaccines kill children dude above:

polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc., would kill many more children if we didn't vaccinate against these thinsg regularly.

it's about risk at the POPULATION LEVEL.

i agree that the health care system should spend much more resources on prevention, in general. our health care sytem has become an illness care system. public health, however, is about prevention. it includes things like immunization as well as focusing on the environment and all of the determinants of health. over time public health and health care systems ahve diverged. but that's a whole other story.

you can't argue with nutbars who claim that humans don't contribute to global warming, whose "evidence" is based on bad science and plain old lies. we're trying to do the same thing here. at some point it is just a waste of time.

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I have my own personal experience to learn from when it comes to modern medicine and from that have very little faith in modern medicine.

I think that is often what forms our decisions. How has modern medicine affected our lives in the past.

Personally, I would not be here today without hospitals, doctors, nurses, meds, etc.

I plan on getting the shot eventually.

(on a side note, I nearly chopped off my fingertip last night and the tylenol 3's are my saviour right about now...thanks modern medicine)

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I've never had a flu shot and most likely never will unless forced. Hell, I think I have swine flu right now as I type this, we shall see. Either way, for lunch I'll have some pureed squash/corn/parsnip/cream soup and something equally as healthy tonight for dinner (and every day/night). Drink lots of water, eat some fruit and probably be just fine.

so…. You're healthy yet you think you have the virus? Doesn't that negate your argument that living healthy will prevent viruses like this?

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so…. You're healthy yet you think you have the virus? Doesn't that negate your argument that living healthy will prevent viruses like this?

Hmmm, it would if I had that argument but since I don't, then there's nothing to negate :) Oddly enough, I didn't even imply it. I did say that:

"...something equally as healthy tonight for dinner (and every day/night). Drink lots of water, eat some fruit and probably be just fine."

I do believe that if people were healthier there'd be less viruses going around because the viruses wouldn't have such good homes.

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mmmmmmmmmmmmm, pie. I just made homeade jello out of grapes that grow on the front porch. sorry, off topic but I'm hungry.

Also of note is that I don't hate modern medicine, it saves lives, but I do think we have a very bad drug problem which is there to fight an even worse mal-nutrition problem.

I also live in Ottawa and don't fall into this list:

At this time, Ottawa Public Health is providing the vaccine to the following high priority groups:

* People 6 months old to 65-years-old with chronic medical conditions

* Healthy children between 6 months and five years of age

* Health care workers

* Household contacts and care providers of infants younger than six months and people with compromised immune systems

* Pregnant women: Pregnant women will also have the option to receive the non-adjuvanted H1N1 vaccine, which is expected to be delivered in mid-November.

And therefore the vaccine is not available to me at this time so it's all a moot point, especially if I have it.

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I do believe that if people [color:red]took better care of themselves were healthier there'd be less viruses going around because the viruses wouldn't have such good homes.

there's no doubt about that. social determinants of health includes things like a healthy social and physical environment, a good diet, healthy foods, physical fitness, stress reduction, good sanitation (including washing your hands regularly)....

taking care of yourself decreases your risks of getting ill, and if you get ill decreases your risk of getting severely ill. but the risks do not go down to zero.

fwiw, immunization falls under prevention as well.

and getting vaccinated should not mean that you don't do all of those other things. just like the existence of medication should not preclude individuals from taking care of themselves, eating well, doing exercise....

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Personally, I would not be here today without hospitals, doctors, nurses, meds, etc.

I plan on getting the shot eventually.

Though I would have one less arm had I kept in line with the approach of modern medicine, I would have had less care/monitoring when dealing with recurring acute lobar pneumonia (as an infant), and would have not come back from the dead (2 year old drowning victim) - the antibiotics that I stayed on while avoiding the doctor worked. Antibiotics and other medications work very differently from vaccines but FWIW that's not always the point to be made.

My family taking its own advice/approach to first aid and general wellness has been far more beneficial than medical advice more times than not. As a best approach, doctors were more of a complimentary approach to health for us.

Please note that I edited that earlier post and I clarify:

I resent/have contempt for the APPROACH (or general lack thereof (standard path as compared to proactive targeted approach - much of the time) of modern medicine, not everything under the umbrella.

My choice of words, tone, and honesty (in this and other threads I can only presume) has labelled me a wackjob, and ignorant (among other things I can only presume), while it is merely me pausing a moment, taking a step back, and trying to look at the overall situation to best benefit myself and people that I care about.

There are many approaches to avoiding getting the flu, boosting one's immunity, and keeping healthy that don't involve poisoning one's self.

Though vaccination is a standard practice it is the ONLY approach that our health care system is using to combat this outbreak so people believe that it is the only credible approach while that is far from the truth.

you can't argue with nutbars who claim that humans don't contribute to global warming, whose "evidence" is based on bad science and plain old lies. we're trying to do the same thing here. at some point it is just a waste of time.

I don't see how that's happening here. For the most part, both sides of the argument are based on perfectly 'good' science. It's the suggestion that people that recognize the dangers of vaccination and support health and wellness over reactionary medicine are nutbars and their position is worthless can only harm more people than help them in the long run.

Funny how after Velvet commented that modern medicine, akin to religion, requires a leap of faith, my comment about said leap of faith being superstitious warranted a personal attack.

I do find it reassuring when people chime in about the other things that are worth noting in the rest of my posts that people would prefer to overlook in their vain attempts to debate and be 'correct'.

Thanks, folks. Nobody's discussing much when it's approached as an argument.

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