Raptor moves...

[Thorgnor]

For them to win, or survive? 'Cause if you're willing to support a losing club indefinitely then your proof I'm at least partly wrong. I totally agree with the statement about Colangelo, but I think the Raps have to become a winner at some point or else.

[Schwa.]

Not really encouraging when you can't lure any free agents to your team either.

BARNES SHUNS RAPTORS, SIGNS 2-YEAR DEAL WITH LAKERS

The Toronto Raptors appear to have lost out again as free agent swingman Matt Barnes has agreed to a two-year, $3.6 million deal to join the World Champion Los Angeles Lakers.

Barnes, who averaged 8.8 points and 5.5 rebounds last season with the Orlando Magic, started a minor controversy last week when he reveled via social networking site Twitter that he was set to join the Raptors. A reported sign-and-trade deal fell apart as the Raptors were forced for the second time this off-season to look for other options.

Barnes reportedly turned down more money from the Cleveland Cavaliers, however he felt that the Lakers gave him a better opportunity to win a title.

[badams]

Basketball is not dead in Canada but the Raptors as a franchise are a mess.

[Basher]

Not really encouraging when you can't lure any free agents to your team either.

Well that doesn't really apply to the Barnes situation. Raptors could NOT make a free agent offer to Barnes, they could only obtain him in a sign and trade, and Orlando only had the cap space to sign him to a 2 years, 3.8M. He wanted more money, which the Raptors tried to give him, but it didn't work under the CBA.

[Schwa.]

ah. Correct'd.

So basketball is alive and well in Toronto. The rest of Canada? Could ANY other city in this country support a team? NO.

Perhaps the question should be, "Was basketball ever ALIVE in Canada to begin with?"

What we seem to have come up with here is that Toronto can financially support an NBA franchise. With it's "International" status it can financially support a team with Corporate Boxes and season tickets and whatnot....but fan base....can a team with such a tiny contingent of "dedicated fans" such as the Basherman survive when they have sooooo many consecutive seasons of losing. Losing upper echelon players and losing games with those players. I say not. Toronto has always been toted for it's Baseball fans, and yet when the chips are down and the future looks bleak, the fans are no where to be seen. Sure they can FINANCIALLY weather the storm, but the "people in the seat" factor I imagine is much much harder to rehabilitate.

I'm willing to guess (no basher, I don't have any evidence for this) that next year's attendance is among the worst they've ever had and that, although the financial woes are sustainable, the damage to their ticket sales and reputation as a club are, for lack of a better term, dead.

[Jakis]

Raptors surprisingly do well with attendance compared to a lot of the American cities. They fill their building at 90% capacity. The 76'ers only filled it to 70% last year and the worst attendance is the nets at 69%. I don't see the raptors moving or folding anytime soon.

[Jakis]

I'm surprised the jay's are still around considering they haven't been in the playoffs since they won those two championships. I am happy they are though cause I love my 100 dollar season tickets.

[Schwa.]

I don't think I ever said that they'd fold or move. I'll reread my stuff, but I believe the sport to be dying (or at least, very sick) not the team. I actually wasn't very clear on that.

Philly and New Jersey are both highly industrialized city centers that were devastated by the current recession. I believe that to have a lot to do with it....but you just supported my claim by naming them because the wins and horrible management by both of those teams have led to their demise as well. Both teams have done exactly what the Raptors are in the midst of doing; failing on numerous levels. Neither was even close to being in the hunt for a playoff spot, which is what I was trying to say that the Raptors are in danger of next year. Follow those teams as an example of what the Raptors have to look forward to.

[Thorgnor]

I'm with the big guy.

If they consistently can't win, I'm not sure that nostalgia will float the franchise forever.

[Thorgnor]

I just looked at what Basher posted about Barnes again and now I'm a little confused. Did Barnes want more money? He took less with the Lakers, so I'm guessing it wasn't all about the business, eh? The Raps offered 3.8 in a sign-and-trade? And he took what? 3.6? He wants to win... 'nuff said.

[Basher]

Raptors did not offer him 3.8M in an S&T. How does a player taking less money relate to the profitability of a team?

[Booche]

Who in their right mind would sign in Toronto when they could sign in LA?

Shiiiiiiiiiiiit, fuck the NBA. Remember all those Luc Robitaille to Tourana rumours?

There's your answer Fishbulb.

[The Chameleon]

Oh my.

the raptors deal for Barbossa and Tyson Chandler looked good. Now we only get Barbossa.

This is typical as I think many NBA stars fear Toronto like the plague and who can blame them considering we are have been in a constant state of rebuild since Vince Carter left.

Can we just give the 2011 title to Miami now and get it over with?

[Thorgnor]

The profitability of a team, again imo, is based on its' potential to win. Any team with zero potential will find themselves in a situation where they're paying players more to come to the franchise, only to get less out of them.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Guest

[Thorgnor]

Not really encouraging when you can't lure any free agents to your team either.

Well that doesn't really apply to the Barnes situation. Raptors could NOT make a free agent offer to Barnes' date=' they could only obtain him in a sign and trade, and Orlando only had the cap space to sign him to a 2 years, 3.8M. He wanted more money, which the Raptors tried to give him, but it didn't work under the CBA.[/quote']

What did the Raps offer then?!?!?!?

Is a player on a stinky team gonna get a lot of endorsement deals, or are Kobe and his boys gonna get them?

Other than the roster what good reason would you have for cheering for a team, or joining one? So Barnes going to a winner proves the point that, in a downward spiral sort of way, the Raps are headed south, in more ways than one, IMO.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Guest

[Thorgnor]

Wait a second, it just occurred to me that fucking around about the 3.6-3.8 whatever the fuck is THE problem. How the fuck are we gonna win when we lose our star and our cap space is still so fucked we can't pay a guy? Who else are we paying that we can't afford to get better pieces? Is that a testament to the business style of the club? Name the best deal we've made in the past five years. Calderon? Evans? Barg's?!?!?!?!?

[Basher]

It is irrelevant what the Raps "offered" Barnes, because the offer was voided by the league.

Barnes, FWIW, did choose to come to Toronto before the league nixed the deal.

[Thorgnor]

What was the league's problem? Finance?

Did Barnes have LA as an option before the deal fell through with Toronto? What fell through with the Charlotte trade? Finance? Do the Raps have a bad track record developing? Is this kind of deal busting good press for the team?

You know what? You're right. There's nothing wrong in Toronto. Franchise is running as planned... in circles, keeping people on the line, and paying for seats. You are proof that the Raps have no worries. Even with five or ten consecutive useless efforts, you'd root for them anyways, right? And we wanna blame the players or the owners for a lockout? Seems to me the business is based on whether or not the fans pay up.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Guest

[Thorgnor]

Remember, the Raptors history is one of dejection and loss. Why would people keep supporting a disappointment? This is likely not an answer to be found in past income figures, you know?

[Basher]

I don't know if you really want to become less ignorant here or not, but to answer your questions:

The league nixed the Barnes deal because the "sign" part of the sign and trade, from Orlando's perspective, was illegal. Orlando could not sign Barnes to more than 1.8M a season, and they tried to sign him for $4.5M per season to make the trade to Toronto work.

As for the Charlotte trade, it has been widely reported that Michael Jordan nixed the deal at the last moment, even after the players have been informed.

As you can see, the Raptors finances have nothing to do with those matters.

[Thorgnor]

My point is actually made stronger by the idea that Barnes wanted to sign with Toronto for 4.5, but he took 3.6 in LA. It suggests to me that he thinks in the long and short run he'll get more wins and more money from going to LA. Endorsements, whatever. Point is, he doesn't think Toronto is gonna win, or make enough of a splash to be worth that much less money.

Mostly my point is strengthened because I said originally that business be damned, they are in a reputation tailspin. Downward spiral begins.

Ignorance confirm'd.

:bonghit:

What was that Jordan thing about anyways? They ended up getting less in the deals, no. Are they scouting the future in a way that makes them more confident with picks than with players and money? That shit's just confusing. Great players make weak team choices sometimes.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Guest

[Basher]

Thorgnor, I'm never going to say that Toronto is a more desirable NBA location than LA, and neither would anyone else. He's friends with Kobe, and as soon as he realized he wasn't going to be cashing in with a bigger contract he went to a place where he can play for a ring. There is nothing unusual about that.

Jordan balked at the length/$$ left on Calderon's contract.

[Thorgnor]

I see. So the Raps made a bad decision on Calderon's contract. Fair enough. That shouldn't reflect on team management. no, wait.

The problem seems to be that Toronto isn't playing for a ring, or really for anything other than to be part of the NBA's supporting cast.

Why should people root for the KC Royals when they're a big league farm team for one of the big boys? Is that where the Raps are headed? Is it silly to suggest that in order to actually contend for a title, they're gong to have to imagine themselves as being at least as good a basketball city as the teams that are currently winning? How will they attract great players when they themselves give in to the idea that "well of course he went to LA"? Self-defeating, and not a good look for the future.

I'm outraged still at Turkoglu and Carter. How fucking dare any of these assholes think that the business is about players or owners or stadiums or leagues. Fuck'em all without the fans.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Guest
Of course tthey went to Boston, New York... whatever...

[Basher]

It is easy to say that the Raps made a bad decision about the Calderon contract after the fact. Calderon was coming off a borderline All-Star season, and had shown tremendous improvements in all offensive aspects of his game up to that point. He had a ridiculous 40/50/90 season (3P%, FG%, FT%) and set the all-time record for free throw percentage, and was turning heads.

"Why should people root for the KC Royals when they're a big league farm team for one of the big boys? Is that where the Raps are headed? "

You've compared a small-market team in a league with no cap to a mid/large market team in a cap league. I hope you see the fundamental difference there. Raptors have no problem "affording" talent.

Listen, I understand that you are frustrated, and so am I. The problem is - and I really don't mean this to be insulting - you seemingly know very little about the NBA and how it operates.

[Thorgnor]

You're definitely not going to hurt my feelings by saying I don't understand business. I take that as a complement.

I think it`s totally fair to say I know nothing about the NBA business. I`m so fucking dyslexic I really don`t even see numbers and letters on the same page until I take some time to concentrate. Go ahead and call me an idiot.

I'm sure you're intellect is bulletproof.

If the Raps can afford whatever they want, but can`t get anything worth putting on the court, tell me about how well they`re run. It's a farce to argue that they made the right moves.

It'd be fine if Calderon was the only stupid deal that they made. Barg's, O'Neil... we could argue all day.

Basing a deal on one season is not a good plan. History proves that.

My point is this man, if they're making the right business decisions, and the deals all make sense, then how come they can't compete? Perhaps there's more to basketball, even in the NBA, than accounting. Seems to me that comparing a sport to a sport is fair, even when pencil pushers think they have nothing business wise in common.

Read that quote back to yourself again and try to pay attention. If I wanted to talk about salary caps I could do that. I'm talking about a team being used by another as a development team. I realize that caps control the ability to buy players away from other teams with exorbitant deals. And so does Miami. And Cleveland,

because it really ain't about the money.

The arrogance of calculators astounds me... no qualities, just quantities, very narrow-minded... Is Rondo great because he counts well, or because he's got hustle? For someone who can keep track of such large figures you sure seem to have a hard time appreciating the "intangibles". If you need hard evidence go look up Calderon's hustle on youtube and come back to me with the massive highlight reel from before that deal was inked. Great move on the team's part.

Do you really feel that the best way to judge a player, or a team's, quality is to count it? Business does NOT work independently of the minds that work it. The myth of statistics is that our brains aren't involved in transforming the numbers into qualified units so as to make them understandable. Go back to your first year breadth course in social science and try to remember that the world you see is socio-individually constructed. Would you say the difference between a shot and a rebound is a four or a six? dig it?

The predominance of the conversations regarding business in basketball, IMO, come down to the illusion that it isn't the people making the decisions, it's out of their hands. It's just too fucking convenient to be able to blame it on the money. The people at the club have fucked up.