Stronach Joins Liberals

[timouse]

so in one fell swoop, the budget will pass, and harper's attempts to knock the legs out from beneath the liberals will not succeed.

works for me.

on the other hand, another rich kid on the liberal team makes me a tad nervous. belinda always seemed like daddy's sock puppet. the sock is on the other foot now. just knowing that harper got crossed is enough for now, that and no imminent election....i look forward to meeting hux this weekend!

[MarcO]

Look, like TimmyB once said to me, the Liberals could kill people on the steps of Parlaiment and they'd still be a better alternative than the Conservatives. In the end, all the Liberals did was waste tons of money. That makes me angry and disappointed but the truth is, I don't care. It's only money. Yipadeeshit. Go ahead, waste my money, any elected party will ultimately reach a point where it is a temptation and all of them will fail the test. In the meantime, don't talk to me about money, talk to me about women's rights, immigration policies, US-Canada relations, same-sex legislation, marajuana decriminilization and the environment, among other things. On all those points, yes, I would rather have a corrupt party in power than some "experiment" with the Conservatives. It's still less damaging and less offensive to me.

... not exactly the language I would have used, and I may be a little more irritated over the Sponsorship Scandal than you; but essentially my position. Well said Mr. O.

well, that's why you're the big lawyer guy and I'm the guy who files and scans papers for big lawyer guys.

[Hux]

Here's why the Bloc/separation benefits from an alliance with Harper to force an early election:

Under the new rules on political fundraising that the previous Liberal Gov't brought in two years ago, donations to parties and candidiates are capped at $1,000 for corporations and a max of $5,000 from individuals. The goal of this was to eliminate the perception of, or potential for - influence peddling. Ie. jambands.ca donates $20,000 to the Conservatives, who then change bandwidth laws or something.

BUT - under the new laws, parties now are funded by taxpayers, and get a certain amount of $$ for each vote they get (2 dollars a vote or something around there)

So, the Bloc see their numbers in Quebec, and not only will they get more seats if an election were held, but a LOT more votes, which translates into a lot more cash for their party and cause. Not good for a united Canada.

"Also, by forcing an election before the Conservative party has grown and established itself in Quebec, the hold over Quebec of the Bloc Quebecois can only grow into the vacuum. The result will be to stack the deck in favour of separatism, and the possibility of a Conservative government beholden to the separatists."

- Belinda Stronach this morning.

[Deeps]

I am not happy with the state of affairs of Canadian politics by any stretch. In fact I watch the House of Commons everyday they sit in horror. What I am happy about is that a person is supporting a budget that I truly believe is the best thing for Canada.

Do I support a government who set up the Gommery commission to get rid of the corruption? Yes

Do I support a government who promises to give back every cent of the stolen money? YES

Do I support a Prime Minister who said he would resign if he was implicated in the scandal? YES

Do I want a budget that supports the Atlantic Accord? YES

Do I want a budget that wants to set up a national daycare program so that I can afford to have children? YES

Do I support a budget that will help develop affordable housing? Yes

Do I support a budget that will help support graduate students? Yes

Do I want a government that says no to missile defence? YES

Do I want a government that supports the right to gay marriage so my sister can get married to her partner in Alberta? YES

AND I wont complain about filling out a ballot to do so.

Is it at all possible to achieve all this anyway?

Maybe not right now, but could this still be in our future?

I think it's possible to have these priorities expressed in the house without the complacency of hanging onto an election result that was based on voters not being able to cast their votes upon the Gomery Inquiry's completion.

I hate the thought of homo-sexuals having their rights srewed with ... I do, but Alberta is that way. If you don't like rednecks don't move to Texas.

I believe that good will prevail over time, but Albertans need to be taught about acceptance, not force fed it, you want a victory on paper or do want to improve the morality of the country, because they aren't the same? The focus people have on this human rights issue, though serious and necesary, needs to be tempered with the knowledge that if nothing was done on this front homo-sexuals would still be able to marry in many other provinces. I don't see a bill being able to pass in the house that would reverse what the majority of provinces have already ok'd.

As for day-care : My mom and Dad were 21 had 2 kids born in 1978 and were given very little in the way of government day-care support. They are the parents of 2 university graduates because they found it in themselves, not the government, to improve their personal economics. They are better people because they struggled and so are their kids. If a person can't afford kids then maybe they need to budget and improve their ways to warrant themselves being fit. Or maybe they need to bare down and realize that the kiddy plan is going to be tough as nails, but in the end they will reap the benefits. Define "afford to have kids".

Gomery : Setting up and inquiry and promising to pay back the money is a decision for the people and not within the rights of the party. I don't show up to court on millions of dollars of fraud and tell the judge that I see that I may be found guilty so you know what judge...let me keep my job at the bank because I promise to pay you back ... I've seen the error of my ways (or my colleagues ways in the case of me being a business owner) and now I'll make it better.

Accountablilty is a good thing and Canada's tendancy to govern based on the lowest common denominator is nice, but not flawless.

I like my politics centred I guess.

I am a fence sitting bastard at this point and am trying to figure out which lot of weirdness to pick.

It's a strange time and an opportunity for Canadians to start REALLY thinking about how they vote. Without another election I feel we won't learn anything.

Deeps

[Deeps]

"imbalanced, kick-back jockeys who'll stop at nothing to maintain an underhanded strangle-hold on our lives"

and I was wondering if you might expand on that. This underhanded strangle-hold on our lives, what are you referring to?

Strangle-hold is a little severe, but they have called an early election to hold onto power and are still maneuvering their way into a longer tenure at the top.

The fact that they are in jeopardy of losing power opints to lack of strangle hold (sorry for the rhetoric).

Deeps

[can-o-phish]

What can I say about this? Being so pissed off with politics lately, seeing Belinda make this move is great. This is one intelligent person who'll hopefully breath some life and integrity back into a party that so desperately needs it.

Just my humble opinion.

[StoneMtn]

I hate the thought of homo-sexuals having their rights srewed with ... I do, but Alberta is that way. If you don't like rednecks don't move to Texas.

What if you're born in Alberta/Texas? Must you uproot in order to have sexual freedom; and if so, is that really a supportable position?

[CookieMonster]

I hate the thought of homo-sexuals having their rights srewed with ... I do, but Alberta is that way. If you don't like rednecks don't move to Texas.

I believe that good will prevail over time, but Albertans need to be taught about acceptance, not force fed it

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

Kindly do NOT paint us all with the same brush!

I have lived in Alberta my whole life and I love my province as well as my hometown, Calgary. Does this make me a red-neck, gay-bashing, environment-trashing conservative? HELL NO! And I'm not alone. Please remember that not everyone over here voted conservative.

Not once in my time upon this earth have I ever voted conservative. That being said, I have never voted liberal either. I find both parties repulsive and as someone said earlier, (possibly in a different thread - I can't remember now) "choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil".

I find your generalization highly offensive.

[Deeps]

The truth is I want another election so I can be prime minister and be mouthy in an even bigger forum.

Seriously though .... my hope would be that the outcome of this would result in another minorty Liberal government with a bigger share in the way of the NDP overall and that the business and humanitarian ideals that I posess would be facilitated by a now more financially dilligent Liberal party with a little less power and an NDP with a larger voice.

There needs to be a message to political parties that shows corruption will damage you in the long run and they will be found out and subject to the wrath of the people's votes leaving them. This is where I agree with the distain Harper has for his opponents.

Le Deeps

[MarcO]

Seriously though .... my hope would be that the outcome of this would result in another minorty Liberal government with a bigger share in the way of the NDP overall......

And this I agree with entirely.

[Deeps]

I find your generalization highly offensive.

I thought it obvious that I would not lump ALL Albertans in there my friend. Just running through a point based on prevailing political trend not on the enitire populus.

My apologies genuinely offered up.

Deeps

[CookieMonster]

Apology accepted, and please excuse my over-sensitiveness. It's a touchy issue for me, and I'm also a bit of a grouch this morning. It might be the case that I had a few too many birthday beers last night...

[StoneMtn]

I hate the thought of homo-sexuals having their rights srewed with ... I do, but Alberta is that way. If you don't like rednecks don't move to Texas.

What if you're born in Alberta/Texas? Must you uproot in order to have sexual freedom; and if so, is that really a supportable position?

I think you forgot to answer my question.

[Deeps]

I hate the thought of homo-sexuals having their rights srewed with ... I do, but Alberta is that way. If you don't like rednecks don't move to Texas.

What if you're born in Alberta/Texas? Must you uproot in order to have sexual freedom; and if so, is that really a supportable position?

No it's not ... this should probably read if you don't like rednecks the only way to deal with them is to get married elsewhere for now then move to Texas and fight the good fight, but don't expect or force through legislation people to turn on a dime because you are morally justified in your own mind. This too would be a little disingenuine.

Patience might be a better move in the long run. We want them to understand morally I supppose and that doesn't come through law it comes through time and education. This type of patience brought a lot of provinces around why wouldn't it work in Alberta eventually?

Deeps

Edited May 17, 2005 by Guest
changed a . to a ? at the end!

[Deeps]

I think you forgot to answer my question.

I was workin' on it.

Edited May 17, 2005 by Guest
forgot to quote

[SmoothedShredder]

Doesn't anybody have a strong opinion of this? Hehe just kidding. I like the roads, I like that all governments are concerned with roads. Parks are cool too, and all governments do great things for masses of people, then you can get into the finer details, and bam... drama city (aka Morontowa).

Personally though, I think all of this is wonderful for democracy... and great for our country... this is what the assembly is suppose to do, create stability or instability based on the needs and direction of the party in power. The fact that the elections are so close, only says to me there's a giant power struggle, as big as Canada, or perhaps bigger, and in time, when it's really needed badly, one party will emerge as representing the views of the paradigm, and be able to express this vision (born out of this stuggle) with great clarity... hold on tight and get ready for a bumpy ride. Let the people win!

And watch out for gas prices... there pretty much ready to hit the moon. Hehe (wait 20 years and when the US is up there harvesting fuel, gold, and water you might not think I'm so crazy)

peace,

W

[StoneMtn]

Deeps:

Your clarification makes far more sense to me than your earlier post. It seems to me, though, that you have resiled from your position about where people who don't like rednecks should live.

Also, I don't mean to be holding your feet to the fire. I am aware that you are certainly a person with good moral values and a head on his shoulders. I was just surprised at that unusual comment about not moving to Texas. Overall, though, I generally respect your comments. (In fact, if I didn't I wouldn't bother to ask you to clarify.)

sm

[Large Marge]

Hey Marge...the House will vote on the main Budget Bill on Thursday, as well as the accompanying Bill C-43 which is the NDP provisions added to it, so the ink is very much dry and all Liberals will support the Budget additions that were part of the agreement with the NDP...so...not so sure where you get your info.

I actually get most of info right here, or around the water-cooler - please understand that my words are complete hearsay and probably somewhat skewed by last night’s imbiber; You’re right that C-43 will still be a part of the budget (and good on Layton for having the timing and gumption to get in there while the getting was good) but to me, the big attraction of C-43 was blatant diminishment of large-scale corporate tax cuts. I guess what I meant by them nullifying it before the ink was dry was not necessarily in the actual paperwork, but in the pathetic display of groveling and retractile statements that Martin spewed as soon as Bay Street had a chance to react to the idea of Layton deferring their “just” rewards. It’s like our PM just says whatever he thinks people want to hear at the time (big surprise in politics!); it certainly doesn’t function as a trust-building exercise and in this case it undermines the credibility not only of our PM, but of Layton and the NDPs and ultimately, of our entire budgetary process.

I agree that there is a thick thread of cynicism throughout the fabric of the Canadian voting (or in many cases, non-voting) population, but I see that flaw in the weave as being symptomatice, as much as I see it as problematic. History (especially recent) asks us to doubt our leaders’ integrity.

If you’ve got some, please suggest alternatives to Question Period or the other typical quick-reference news sources; my problem is lack of time to devote to filtering through all the BS (bull shit & boring stuff) and I'm not sure where else to turn.

Cheers!

[SevenSeasJim]

Me see big problem with Special Interest Groups.

[Deeps]

Not every family can afford to have a stay at mom OR afford the high price of day care but they certainly do have the right to have children.

Not really.

There are mistakes where people get pregnant b4 the family is ready I can aid these extenuating circumstances. However I will not justify people who have children when they know damn well that they're are unable to provide, because they believe it to be their "right" and they want a bundle of joy that others can cloth.

When someone elses "rights" result in the population paying I have a right to be annoyed.

Can I get the non-drivers to throw in on my gas expenses cause I decided I really like SUVs? No.

My choice is my burden I should be made to deal with it alone orr with a little help from my friends.

Deeps

[Hux]

When someone elses "rights" result in the population paying I have a right to be annoyed.

I don't know if you realize it or not Deeps, but that position or philosophy of government is more right-wing than any political party in Canada at the moment.

Should the state act as a pro-active force for equality, or stay out of the sphere of the individual who should be left to determine their own fate regardless of circumstance - there's your (excruciatingly generalized by me) classic "right vs. left"....that statement is most definitely on the far-right of the spectrum. But you are entitled to those opinions, hell the people that brought me into this world live over there too, and I love the hell out of 'em!!

[\/\/illy]

...orr with a little help from my friends.

I get high with a little help from my friends.

Sorry, don't want to hijack, just inject some humour because it's where I'm at today. Carry on now.

[Deeps]

When someone elses "rights" result in the population paying I have a right to be annoyed.

I don't know if you realize it or not Deeps, but that position or philosophy of government is more right-wing than any political party in Canada at the moment.

Should the state act as a pro-active force for equality, or stay out of the sphere of the individual who should be left to determine their own fate regardless of circumstance - there's your (excruciatingly generalized by me) classic "right vs. left"....that statement is most definitely on the far-right of the spectrum. But you are entitled to those opinions, hell the people that brought me into this world live over there too, and I love the hell out of 'em!!

I think we have to pick our spots on assistance. I like a socialialist slant, but don't try to convince me that the burden you've knowingly taken on is now my responsibility. Governments change and legislation around funding for things does too.

It's not prudent to say you're able to take on a child if you have a complete necessity for assistance that might be gone tomorrow is it?

I guess I see that a lot of Canadians are more apt to look to their government for help when challenged rather than realize the benefits of toughing it out.

It's like 20+ year able bodied people who collect UI in the winter because they are landscapers in the summer. F 'em get your ass out there and get a gig. Because I don't pay taxes in the 10s of thousands of dollars to help people who in my opinion don't NEED it. I don't have a tax grudge and realizee that as a responsible citizen it's my honour to help those who are in need and those who deserve.

It's the same reason most of us don't give spare change to beggers around our age who are essentially lazy in some obvious cases. This skepticsm is neither left nor right but quite centered with all do respect.

If you knew me you would truly know how charitable I am and that I only am looking to eliminate this trend of government teed sucking I see that many of us are prone to.

Deeps

[StoneMtn]

Deeps:

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on people who cannot afford kids, but do have them? Should we terminate the pregancy against their will before it's too late? Should we take away the child immediately upon birth? Should we forcibly sterilize those who we believe will never be able to afford children?

(These are all arguments that come up with regard to the Third World or with regard to disabled people in our society, and it seems that most contemporary philosophers consider the right to reproduce a "natural right"; ie. one not to be infringed, ever.)

What are your thoughts?

[Deeps]

What's done is done. I'm not for forced abortion. If you have a clue and can do some math and your wits are about you and you find it's not finacially possible. Don't procreate.

You know what funk it....free baby sitters and barbie campers for everyone. I'll buy.

I think help is good I think breeding reliance through mandatory provision is bunk. People need to get off their asses and pick themselves out of the gutter.

You hear about families who have generations who have all collected UI. It becomes a way of life that is socially destructive, morally obtuse, and could have been avoided.

I guess if there was some sort of a percentage of a persons annual income and they paid what they could and posibly were taxed later as their economic status improved and thus would pay back into the system that helped them then that would be cool.

Deeps

Edited May 17, 2005 by Guest