h Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 Here is a very controversial thing that has happened this week. I was wondering if anyone thinks he should still be in jail or if you think he should be released... its a touchy subject though, maybe nobody would want to comment Personally, i dont think he would have gotten such mercy in auschewitz... **************************** Papon leaves prison By KIM HOUSEGO-- Associated Press PARIS (AP) -- Wartime collaborator Maurice Papon, convicted of sending French Jews to Nazi death camps, was released from prison Wednesday after a court ruled he was too old and sick to serve out his 10-year sentence. As the frail-looking 92-year-old shuffled out of Paris' La Sante prison, a few protesters shouted "Papon, assassin!" and "Papon in jail!" The one-time Paris police chief and national budget minister wore a quilted coat despite the warm day and was heavily guarded by dozens of police. His lawyers helped him into a dark Renault sedan. Residents of a nearby apartment building leaned out of windows to watch. The court's decision provoked immediate outpourings of frustration and dismay from Holocaust survivors and others who fought a long battle to bring Papon to justice. Papon was convicted in 1998 of complicity in crimes against humanity and spent three years behind bars. Alain Jakubowicz, a lawyer who represented families of Papon's victims at his trial, noted that this year marks the 60th anniversary of the roundup of Jews by France's collaborationist wartime regime. "That's the most important thing, not the release of Maurice Papon." "I simply hope that once released, Maurice Papon will have the decency to shut up and not strut around as he has until now," Jakubowicz said. Michel Slitinsky, who was 17 when he narrowly escaped a Papon-ordered roundup of Jews from Bordeaux in 1942, said the ruling "destroyed the hopes and security that we had" after the verdict that sent Papon to jail. Serge Klarsfeld, a Nazi hunter and historian who helped assemble much of the evidence used at Papon's trial, said the decision to free him "gives a feeling of injustice." "We had fought so that he would stay in prison," Klarsfeld said. "What I hope is that this sick man doesn't turn out to be healthy." Now that he is free, Papon plans to "rest, rebuild his health and spend time with family and friends," lawyer Jean-Marc Varaut said. Varaut said his stunned client gathered up his prison belongings, including framed photos of his dead wife and of Gen. Charles de Gaulle, when told Wednesday of the ruling. "He didn't believe it," Varaut said. "I told him he was free. He said: 'How did it happen?"' Papon rose to budget minister after the war, making him the highest-ranking former French official sentenced for collaboration with the Nazis. His six-month trial revived painful memories of France's wartime past. Papon led the Bordeaux area police during the Nazi occupation of France and was convicted in 1998 for signing orders that led to the deportation of 1,690 Jews from Bordeaux from 1942-44. Most were sent to Auschwitz, the Nazi concentration camp in occupied Poland. All but a handful died. Papon's continuing imprisonment had sparked impassioned debate in France about jailing the elderly. Two former French prime ministers were among those who had called for Papon's release. Papon had triple coronary bypass surgery several years ago and had a pacemaker implanted in January 1999. His lawyers have repeatedly pressed for his release because of his poor health. They filed another request over the summer, based on a new provision in French law that allows prisoners to be freed if two independent doctors agree they are suffering from a fatal illness, or their long-term health is jeopardized by remaining behind bars. A court rejected the request on July 24, and Papon's lawyers appealed. The panel of three appeals court judges said it based its decision on the opinion of several doctors who said Papon's health was "incompatible with his remaining in detention." Before the ruling, French President Jacques Chirac had turned down three requests to pardon Papon. Chirac's Elysee Palace said it had no immediate comment Wednesday. Justice Minister Dominique Perben said the decision was not what the prosecutor, his ministry and he personally had hoped for. "We believed that his continued imprisonment was necessary, taking into account the seriousness of the charges against him," Perben told France-Info radio. Papon will be "totally free to come and go," said Francis Vuillemin, another of Papon's lawyers. Papon will, however, have to inform a judge when he leaves his residence at Gretz-Armainvilliers, outside Paris. In Papon's hometown, residents were reluctant to speak about their infamous neighbor. "The community is very divided," said a 72-year-old retiree who would only give his name as Michel. "Papon was a former mayor here and was generally well-liked but he was also convicted for grave crimes." The Paris prosecutor's office said it will not appeal the court's decision, judicial officials said. The former official fled to Switzerland after his conviction, but was arrested and began serving his sentence in October 1999. Last year, he wrote in a letter to France's justice minister that he felt neither "regrets or remorse" for his acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shainhouse Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 Being Jewish, my belief is he should get what he deserves, no matter how old he is. He should rot in a jail cell pondering about what he did until he's lost his ability to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.Huxtable Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 I would have to agree, no matter how old you are or in what physical condition...you do the crime, you do the time. This man does not deserve to spend time with his loved ones, he does not deserve to see his family. If he is frail and sick than put him in solitude in a hospital or something. I can't agree to letting him out just because he's old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcO Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 What adds to this disturbing scenario is the fact that his crimes took place between 1942 and 1946, but he went on to serve as chief of Paris police, a legislator and budget minister from 1978 to 1981!! He wasn't charged with crimes against humanity until 1983 and avoided trial for 15 years. In the end he was only charged with illegal arrests and detention, not crimes against humanity. What a sad tale of the failure of justice. (on a lighter note, this is my 420th post!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im going home Donny Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 hmm..how disturbing...he ought to be rotting....would the states let Osama out if they inprissoned him..not likely...people seem to have very short memories concerning world history...the fact that he apparently stated his lack of remorse is monsterously disturbing... ...mabey if we all think together in hippy fashion we can give him a heart attack...peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 This demands the question, though: What is the function of the prison system? Is it to punish criminals, or to rehabilitate them, or is it to protect the rest of us from those with criminal intent? I certainly don't condone what Papon did--far from it--but unless the intent of the system is strictly punitive, I don't see a whole lot of point to forcing taxpayers to house and feed him. Why punish *them*? Papon is over 90--he isn't going to be rehabilitated, but I doubt that he'd try his hand at genocide again. Under these circumstances (and I'm verrrrry careful to qualify that), doesn't wishing his death in a prison cell reduce us to *his* level? What purpose does it serve? That we can barricade an ill, old man from the rest of humanity? I don't think I'd take a lot of pride in that accomplishment. He's not going to learn a lesson in there, and he's only going to die once. As for strutting around, he can do that in or out of jail (although it's easier on the outside). Yes, it's a crime that he didn't get locked up much, much sooner, and that's a big chunk of what's pissing people off. But who's going to pay for *that*? The people that failed to turn him in? Sometimes we have to let the bullies win, lest we turn into bullies ourselves. That having been said, I'm not willing to be a doormat, either. As BradM or DancingFool can attest, I'm not one for inspiring an attack of the warm fuzzies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im going home Donny Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 well I suppose on the bright side of the old fuck getting out....he stands a better chance of getting hit by a car...there's always hope. Sereously though the guy claims to be unremorsefull...then he ceases to be punished. I don't think he was in there to be reabilitated...he was in there as a punishment for his horrifying crimes against humanity. When the men,woman and children were being slaughtered did the guy say"ahh come on now thats too much..let'em go" ...anyhoo...syill hopin' for the heart attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swifty Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 lets get that son of a bitch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 My personal opinion is that prisons have become (whether intended or not) more punitive than rehabilitative. If guys like this become too old to withstand their time in prison, maybe they should have shown him the same mercy he showed his victims. Sometimes I really believe capital punishment should be applied. There is no way he should be allowed to spend time with his family. Let him spend some time locked in a room with the families of his victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.Huxtable Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 Although it often seems like a good idea to be as nasty to people as they are to us, it makes us as bad as them. Revenge is sweet but not good on the old morals. I have a hard time with capital punishment. I used to be all for the death penalty until I read about Guy Paul Morin, poor guy in the wrong place at the wrong time and was wrongfully convicted of murder. If we had the death penalty here he'd be dead and HIS killer would have gone unpunished. And also when you're as old as Papon, rehabilitation seems pointless. There's no way he's ever going to change his mindset let alone go out and be active in the community again. I think he was sent to prison to be punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimoe Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 I'd send this bastard to an Israeli prison. Also, how many old men and women did he send to their deaths? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h Posted September 20, 2002 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 just as a point for consideration... we arent taking into account the society's mindset of the time, (of most of europe) and the mentality that comes with being in the middle of a real live terrible terrible war... it was a whole lot different then than it is now and in most cases (not his as he was A) high up a french citizen rounding up other french citizens rather than german invader) but very often anyone who spoke up german or no, officer or no in any way for mercy quickly recieved the same fate. i saw part of a documentary just the other night about germans turning on germans towards the end of the war and one instance of a hotheaded farmer in a small town same as any other small town mouthing off one day about the govt. He was instantly taken in before a court and hung that afternoon in the yard next to his - his wife shouting to them to let him go from their window... all for mouthing off - a fleeting moment from the account - he wasnt a dissident. There was an interview with the officer who was the lawyer against him - weeping now, - but talking about at the time that's what you did to maintain discipline and order. because, if he had instead recommended a 3 month jail sentence or something other than death - that sent a clear message to solders that they could commit a minor infraction and spend the rest of the war in a cosy jail cell emerging alive at the end of the war... i also saw interviews with german villagers who had the terrible horrifying misfortune of living in towns that the russian army went through as they pushed the german army back... some of those stories will live in my mind forever... dont know why i typed all that, probably because it was a very disturbing thing that i saw this week ... i am by no means excusing this fucker what a fucking fuck fucker i'll wonder about my personal morals this afternoon arcane - good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted September 20, 2002 Report Share Posted September 20, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Jaimoe: I'd send this bastard to an Israeli prison. Also, how many old men and women did he send to their deaths?It was wrong when *he* did it ... what makes it more correct now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug Posted September 21, 2002 Report Share Posted September 21, 2002 Originally posted by Ms.Huxtable: [QB]Although it often seems like a good idea to be as nasty to people as they are to us, it makes us as bad as them. Revenge is sweet but not good on the old morals. Good point. At some point the madness has to stop. As hard as it is (especially with disturbing scenarios like this), we have to let things go and make our own peace. Otherwise we just become bitter old people with no hope. Ultimately we dont have any say in the final judgement anyway. The only thing we have any control over is our own thoughts, feelings and actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted September 24, 2002 Report Share Posted September 24, 2002 quote:Originally posted by h: just as a point for consideration... we arent taking into account the society's mindset of the time, (of most of europe) and the mentality that comes with being in the middle of a real live terrible terrible war...My dad spent part of the war dropping bombs on Germany. He was decorated for his efforts. My grandfather was *in* Germany during the latter part of the war, performing espionage for the British. (He's from London.) I believe he killed a few people in self defence. Unlike dropping ten-ton bombs from a Lancaster, this would have been up-close and very personal. If the Nazis had won, no doubt my guys would have been considered war criminals. Do I think of them that way? Of course not. My dad was wonderful. My grandfather is funny and fascinating. Now, that doesn't excuse Papon, but you're right, the environment was a whole lot different then. quote:dont know why i typed all that, probably because it was a very disturbing thing that i saw this week ...I sympathize. My week has been disturbing since 1995. quote:i am by no means excusing this fucker what a fucking fuck fuckerMe neither. quote:i'll wonder about my personal morals this afternoon arcane - good points.If you're wondering about your morals, then you're one of the few people truly worth knowing. And this has nothing to do with my comments about Papon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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