boooo

[payce-ley]

sorry birdy, that wasn't meant to come out harshly

I don't hate Conservatives, gimme Joe Clark any day

Kyoto at least represents a large portion of the planet attempting to work together on something that affects everyone... when the States said no to it, most other countries were pretty stunned... they can get away with that though because they're the big cheese right now (see signature below)

maybe Kyoto isn't working very well yet (I think its an enormous project that'll take decades to have a serious impact) but its good to at least be giving the appearance of being on board with the global community

cutting back on studying alternative fuel sources and wind power just seems insane to me

Edited April 14, 2006 by Guest
sagittarius blurting corrected

[Birdy]

no bubbles burst here... but I don't believe all politicians are as bad as the next... like saying all teachers are cruel... some teachers aren't

Kyoto rollbacks, authors being told not to speak publically about sensitive topics and marijuana decriminalization getting axed are pretty recent developments (and strongly mirror American policies under the Bush administration)

yes bad things always happen under any and every government... these happen to be current and particularly unpleasant things to me... I respect Canada because we generally tend to be fairly tolerant and conscientious... these developments seem to disregard both of those qualities

I don't care who's in charge... authors should be allowed to speak freely, Kyoto was at least a step in the right direction and I don't think people should live under the threat of prosecution over how they like to relax

i dunno. i'm kind of a subscriber to the old 'kyotos a waste of time' camp. it has the heart, but it doesn't have the common sense.

if we're really, REALLY to cut down on green house gas emmissions, our money should be invested into researching technologies that would make things like oil and coal burn cleaner, and to develop existing clean technologies- ie, solar power, to ensure the energy production of tomorrow is cheaper than it's existing technologies of today, and more effective.

the fact that kyoto grants less developed nations the opportunity to use more energy-intensive production methods kinda blows the entire point of kyoto out of the water. throughout all of these exemptions, i'm sure we'll simply have american/canadian/UK manufacturers outsourcing everything to these underdeveloped nations to get the job done at a cheap hourly rate. congrats to America/Canada/UK for reducing your green house gas emmissions, but check out how they're sky rocketing in the middle east and the pacific realm! Really all we'll be doing is shifting the white haze over to the eastern hemisphere and rapidly industrializing their land. Suppose this idea here is as good as any other in an attempt to "westernize" the east.

[Birdy]

sorry birdy, that wasn't meant to come out harshly

nah. i didn't read it as harsh.

Kyoto at least represents a large portion of the planet attempting to work together on something that affects everyone... when the States said no to it, most other countries were pretty stunned... they can get away with that though because they're the big cheese right now (see signature below)

i agree with this, even though in midst of all this globalization, the world seems to be growing apart globally. maybe it's the US.. backing out on the UN, that kind of thing. but i wonder, if it were any other country with the kind of powerful arm that the US wields, what they would do. I think the US is in more of a peculiar situation that we, France, Australia, even the UK in the leadership role that it has to take and just 'knowing' that they can get away with stuff. fortunately for our budget planners, we're not holding the world's economy in our britches.

maybe Kyoto isn't working very well yet (I think its an enormous project that'll take decades to have a serious impact) but its good to at least be giving the appearance of being on board with the global community

is it really though? i don't think so. during WWII half the 'global community' was the axis of evil. i think it's important that a country is able to speak up and argue the merits of a particular case. where we get into trouble with all of this is over the balance of power, and that considering the US holds the majority of it, are really unable to "argue" anything.. rather they just do as they please and the rest of just stand back and watch, like chumps.

cutting back on studying alternative fuel sources and wind power just seems insane to me

yup.

[Jaimoe]

I don't hate Conservatives, gimme Joe Clark any day

Those old Progressive Conservatives and their ideals are gone now. Joe Clark admitted that himself. The Alliance Party has infested the right. Ontario Conservative leader John Torre may be the only "throwback" Conservative left.

[payce-ley]

during WWII half the 'global community' was the axis of evil. i think it's important that a country is able to speak up and argue the merits of a particular case. where we get into trouble with all of this is over the balance of power, and that considering the US holds the majority of it, are really unable to "argue" anything.. rather they just do as they please and the rest of just stand back and watch, like chumps.

well banding together to try and save the planet which we all need intact in order to survive is a little different than faxists trying to conquer the rest of the planet whilst eliminating the poor jewish folks... one cause is obviously necessary and the other was an act of greed and madness

Canada has a reputation for doing the right thing that has gained us pretty universal respect... if we ignore Kyoto I'm sure others will lose heart and follow suit... thats a reckless move without some sort of better Plan B in place

the US is up to their eyeballs in problems right now and the UK definately ain't what she used to be... not sure thats the ship I want to exclusively commit the country to join up with

Harper's plans so far feel like steps backward, not forward

[Birdy]

i agree totally payceley. the wwII reference probably wasn't the best i could conjur up. sorry.

Canada has a reputation for doing the right thing that has gained us pretty universal respect... if we ignore Kyoto I'm sure others will lose heart and follow suit... thats a reckless move without some sort of better Plan B in place.

hit the nail right on the head here-- we need a plan B. harper is taking steps backward cuz he hasn't offered up a viable solution. i'd prefer a government who would recognize the sheer and utter importance of environmentalism and make it one of their top priorities to thinktank solutions. but i'd also prefer a government who wouldn't waste time dicking around with a half-ass solution cause to date we haven't come up with anything better.

i think slowly we'll see more nations back out of kyoto till the point comes where we need to sit down and chat again.

or at least i hope.

[edger]

Talk is right. The only real positive thing that has come out of Kyoto is at least some low-level chatter.

I'd don't like to think of myself as an alarmist, however the fact that environmental sustainability/human viability is not THE #1 policy priority for all levels of nested government makes our collective situation pretty fuckin bleak.

Short-sightedness, impulsiveness, addiction to consumption. The inability to comprehend the concept of "common" resources. We're in big trouble, and I honestly question how aware of this fact the general populace is (not directed at any of you individuals), including our "so-called" leaders.

A reliance on "technology" is not enough (despite the enormous gains that could be and should be made). The problem is an ethical one. A lack of awareness and understanding of existing interrelationships that are vital for planetary survival. In my opinion it has to start with education (as corny as that sounds). Without an enviornmental ethic, a sense of civility to both our collective living room and each other, an understanding of oneself within the context of a larger system. An understanding of ecosystem services, and the recognition that social and economic systems are NOT separate systems from the ecosystem. They are one, and as such you cannot have a situation where one is sacrificed for the other.

In other words there must be better ways of doing things that result in multiple gains (granted with a certain degree of trade-offs to be contemplated via "participatory" democratic processes)

I won't pretend that I know exactly how to "teach" some of these principles, and yes even "values", (helps when one actually is able to spend some time outdoors to develop a connection with their environment). And I realize that not everyone has equal opportunity or access to such experiences. Policies directed towards making that happen would be a good fuckin start.

Ooohhh, I'm starting to get worked up. I could rant on, but I don't think I will.

[payce-ley]

if things seem alarming to ya, I don't think it makes one an alarmist... the state of the climate definately alarms me... and our snowballing abuse of it

my sleep deprived thinking has me at maybe this publicized Kyoto dis-interest is good in at least it has brought the project under scrutiny... good intentions or fluff its shown it isn't proving itself pertinent enough to garner the support, even among the voting public, it'll require to achieve positive results... looking back you'd figure it was designed hoping to bring a blatantly unsympathetic US leadership on board which probably led to too much compromising (Bush has thankfully changed his tune since first outright dismissing global warming altogether)

at the very least the effort needs a name that doesn't sound like a Sumo wrestler choke hold... something that reflects the necessity for dedicated co-operation and serious economic reforms (think money is the real problem, no one wants to stop making as much as they can so they can build a hurricane proof geo-dome... with a robotic vacuum device, ultra grande jacuzzi, seven-dimensional surround sound and an 'authentic' mediterranean kitchen... and a USB disco light, of course)

discussing it made me notice the wisdom of self imposing apathy when you're pretty much powerless to affect something... good to think things if it grabs ya but essential to know when its out of your hands

and whaaaatever the hell I was talking about an hour or 2 ago before I forgot I was writing this

suffice to say glad I thought more about the state of things and recognized it could be good for a shakeabout

The men who create power make an indispensable contribution to the Nation’s greatness, but the men who question power make a contribution just as indispensable, especially when that questioning is disinterested, for they determine whether we use power or power uses us.

- John F. Kennedy

Hamilton lawyer tryin to help the poor - posted earlier on the stillepost board

sometimes individuals can do more than you'd figure, when their heart's behind em... and sometimes not

night PaYCeLEy

Edited April 15, 2006 by Guest
yes

[edger]

Revolution!! (Couldn't decide whether to use the purple font or not...)