Chernushenko quits Greens over May's 'autocratic approach'

[d_rawk]

All the interesting news seems to be GP related, lately.

Chernushenko quits Greens over May's 'autocratic approach'

I really, really like Chernushenko. Sad to see him go, hope he pops back up in national politics in time. I'd love to see him drafted into the NDP.

Apparently the Green campaign in Ottawa Centre fell just 40 votes shy of the minimum required to qualify for the 60% Elections Canada refund for their campaign expenses, so they are pretty much broke and need to start from scratch

[Birdy]

Sad to see him go!

Seems like the Green Party doesn't have much to hold onto these days, which is super sad considering how much ground they appeared to be making during the campaign. I don't think it's fair to point the finger at Elizabeth May entirely though. I wonder if the Green Party is meant to act more as a social movement of consciousness rather than a political entity in itself. And if so, is casting ballots for the Green Party really strategic voting of sorts?

I really thought the article Andrew Steele wrote spoke volumes. Seems to me that these Greenies would serve all of us much better if they infiltrated the CP, Libs and NDP and started getting the message out there amongst parliamentarians or ran for MP themselves and got elected. Start influencing policy in a party that CAN create/influence policy.

It's nice to see though that Chernushenko is shifting his focus towards the municipal end of things. That's just as important, if not more in my books!

[Thorgnor]

I'm joining the crazy train...

Seems to me that right now a leberal leadership camapign is suicide however, if the NDP were to begin some kind of leadership race simultaeneously... Perhaps after a thorough drubbing in the next election, the liberals, the NDP and the (I say this affectionately) rest might see the benefit of unity.

How long do you think Jack's got in him? 'Cause I really think I could see Ignatieff, or more importantly McKenna leading a coalition of sorts... shit even Rae could probably bring the two very close. And then the greens will have affected the defeat and reconstruction of the useless centre-left libs for a real left alternative to the Conservative party... again like a Liberal-Democratic Party or something...

nuts?

[d_rawk]

nuts?

Yeah, maybe. Or just too early.

The gears are beginning to turn for Mulcair and, to a lesser extent, Angus within the NDP, but there isn't enough time between now and then to have them properly groomed.

I've got the feeling that after the Dion affair, the Liberal backroom is going to have had enough with unknown quantities and get the machinery in place for a party stalwardt. And probably another rightward shift to try to capture some of the Conservative vote.

I'm not sure that there will be much room for a united left alternative unless some of the centre-left Liberals jump shift and allow the Liberals to divide the right.

I think Jack knows the time is coming, but I think that both he and the membership (correctly) don't think that the time is quite now. He has tripled the seats, and for all of his faults, steered the NDP ship in the right direction. I don't get the sense that too many are anxious to change course just yet, but there is the general sentiment that Jack may have peaked. Working with Ignatieff or Rae (in an official capacity, I mean) is definately out. Rae's hatred of the NDP is fierce, and Iggy is just too far out to the right in the way of torture and international military excursions.

[Birdy]

*shudder*

I much prefer that we all learn to work together in minority governments.

Seems to me that would be the way to get the most representation in our system.

[Thorgnor]

I'm not thinking about what's good for Canada, I'm thinking like a political party.

The Libs need a shift forward, and I think it's absurd to think that Right leaning voters will come to the left for a leader. The dissoltuion of the left through the three, now four, left leaning parties is what keeps people away from any of them, and voting period due to the foregone conclusion of minority parliaments that do little to represent either their backers or the rest of us.

These parliaments only serve to increase partisanship OR re-imagining of platforms... after the libs get killed in the next election and the PQ is the opposition again, maybe even seperatists will see that the time isn't going to come.

Sovereignty will hopefully become the issue instead, allowing all parties into the discussion with Quebec members from the Legistlature of the Nation itself not from some rep. of a section of federal seats who is forced to work in Canadian Government. The BQ is useless, the NDP and greens really have no chance at federal leadership, I'm being honest with myself here, and the Libs if crushed will not be served by trying to re-split the right after 15 years of coalition. If the seperatists still exist after the next election the left is fucked without unity, the liberal party will not survive a three party left, they are a watered down left to begin with that served to unite a disparate group of idealists under an electable platform.

That electability is getting old and dying, and voting for a united right. The new left electability is in the millenial generation. Look down south.

We know that proportional rep. is not coming anytime soon, maybe twenty-years from now but...

in the meantime we need a new course and this new course feels awfully familiar to maybe as much as eighty percent of Canadians who didn't vote for Harper or who didn't vote at all or who can't vote but are living under our laws and rules.

(and before you tell me they're lucky to be here answer my question about Khadr.)

Don't count out Iggs so quickly methinks, imagine his voice in the leaders debate against Harper, and I don't think Rae hates the NDP, I think he's upset that he was left out to dry as the only one responsible for Ontario after he followed NDP policies to a "T".

[Birdy]

A lot of conservative supporters are middle grounders who have voted Liberal in the past...[cough]me[/cough]. The right isn't as polar as you think it is. The CP is making ground across Canada because of the centrist angle they're taking and because of the seeming demise of the Libs, who even when faced now with an abimsal election result, still can't seem to agree enough to get their shit together. Especially sad when it seems so obvious to everyone what the fricking problem is.

I don't think we've seen the end of a strong Liberal party. Just as I didn't think we saw the end of a strong Conservative party. Each had/has to take the time to reformulate what works best for them. The Liberals don't need a coalition to gain support. They need someone who can take all of their different camps and make one big camp. If they formed a coalition, I'd think they'd be selling themselves out. I don't think they should consider themselves on the 'left' as in the NDP being on the left. I'd also say that the Lib vote didn't lose as much to the Bloc as the CP vote did. Meaning the separatists are the real stoppers and therefore, not useless at all.

I think it's time for all of those with forgone conclusions about minority governments to give it up. Minority governments have the most ability to do the best while all working together. I'd take a minority Cons/Lib/NDP government any day of the week before any majority of the afore mentioned. All parties, regardless of where they stand, need to be held accountable and in check, and all Canadians should have the ability to have their voice heard, loud and clear. Which is why I think the Libs also sold themselves out when they used the last two years to their advantage, and not to Canadians. Points lost there.

What's your question about Khadr???

[d_rawk]

The Libs need a shift forward, and I think it's absurd to think that Right leaning voters will come to the left for a leader

I dunno. The one big gift that the Liberal party is being handed is a recession and Harper's Conservatives being in power to receive the brunt of the public's dissatisfaction with the economy. The Liberals may want to highlight their center-right side in order to offer themselves as the alternative to that big block of voters who turned to the CPC out of dissatisfaction with the Liberals more than out of identification with the Big C party. Say, a Manley or a McKenna.

Who do you think all those former Liberal seats in the 905 went to? (Hint: It wasn't the NDP or the Greens )

Not to mention that Dion was the most liberal (cheekily you might be able to argue the *only* liberal) leader that the Liberal party has had in quite some time, and had the most disastrous results since the 19th century.

The other side of it, I guess, is that people's personal politics do tend to go leftward when they experience difficult financial times and drift rightward when they feel personally well off. So maybe the declining economy would actually favour campaigning from the left, but I just don't see it being a large enough effect to change the overall dynamic.

[edit to add:]

Meaning the separatists are the real stoppers and therefore, not useless at all.

I totally agree that the BQ can not be considered useless by any measure. As you pointed out - who stopped the Conservative majority?

I'm not sure that they can characterized as just separatists, at this point, either. Sovereignty is currently not an influential political trend, even among Bloc supporters. The BQ is more than just a separatist organization - their mandate is to represent the interests of Quebec at the federal level. At some times, sovereignty is a significant thread within that mandate, at other times, not so much. Right now, it feels like not so much.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Guest
BQ stuff

[Thorgnor]

They don't represent the province... they represent Quebec as a people, essentially a fascist/racist position that somehow the rest of Canada is against them, and that they therefore have a better vision of the world to offer to Quebecois. Remember that half the reason they don't like Justin is that his dad let in so many brown and black people who settled in Montreal, "ruining" Quebecois culture there and increasing the Anglo-enchroachment. They may not be useless in repping for some but they will never help Canda at large function better... useless to me.

I'm all for McKenna, but socially speaking he wouldn't turn off NDP or Green voters... neither would Iggs but for a few over-blown statements taken out of context on human rights issues... PS. how's that UN human rights dec. for Aboriginal people lookin? Didn't we help write that and then not sign out of land claims fears?

My question re; Khadr was a veiled reference to the fact that he's rotting in an American prison and being used as a precedent setting example for the push to change the YOA at home (Which I find particularly reprehensible). I felt the Libs had actually asked more than once, alongside Layton, where he was and what we were going to do about securing justice for him, even if it meant Canadian prison? But the C. government considers him a terrorist and therefore under the jurisdiction of the Americans I suppose. Part of why I could not support either of the top two this time.

[d_rawk]

I don't disagree with you that Quebecers can be disturbingly xenophobic. But I think that the reason they are xenophobic and the reason you consider them 'fascist/racist' have roots in the same problem which is grayer than all of that black and white. Maybe the Québécois are an oppressed nation, or maybe they would be an oppressed nation if they hadn't organized themselves at the federal level to protect themselves. Would you be opposed to an Aboriginal party forming to protect Aboriginal interests? Or would that just be useless to you?

but socially speaking he wouldn't turn off NDP or Green voters

I think this is patently false, at least as in regards to the NDP voters. Abortion? McKenna is considered to be representative of the right wing of the party even by the Liberals.

I agree with you 100% re: Khadr.

[Birdy]

I also agree with you 100% re: Khadr. Canadians are gutless. I understand the reasoning of the CP and before them the Liberals, but sometimes judicial processes need to be politicized. Guantanamo should be forced to shut down and Americans everywhere should be ashamed. Imo, George Bush should be tried as a war criminal.

[Thorgnor]

I don't disagree with you that Quebecers can be disturbingly xenophobic. But I think that the reason they are xenophobic and the reason you consider them 'fascist/racist' have roots in the same problem which is grayer than all of that black and white. Maybe the Québécois are an oppressed nation, or maybe they would be an oppressed nation if they hadn't organized themselves at the federal level to protect themselves. Would you be opposed to an Aboriginal party forming to protect Aboriginal interests? Or would that just be useless to you?

but socially speaking he wouldn't turn off NDP or Green voters

I think this is patently false, at least as in regards to the NDP voters. Abortion? McKenna is considered to be representative of the right wing of the party even by the Liberals.

Dude, take it easy. I'm both Quebecois and Metis, although I don't look it and I'm admittedly Anglo. They are both oppressed nationsssssssss x 600 however, the political utility of these disparate and racially aligned catagories unfortunately is only in the hands of the majority, and their agents.

There is a First Nations People's Party, they run out west.

I'm hoping for something real crazy though,

Phil Fontaine for Liberal-Democratic Leader!!!!

McKenna may rep the right of the Libs. but he wouldn't have a vote on it. I was speaking about his record as Premier.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Guest

[d_rawk]

I'm calm, I'm settled. I'm just enjoying some lively debate with y'all.

[Thorgnor]

In that case, yeah, unfortunately kinda useless, yeah.

[d_rawk]

Haha

In that case, yeah, unfortunately kinda useless, yeah.

Well, listen, I just can't square this. I can't fathom how the Québécois would be better off if the BQ hadn't existed these ~17 years, or even if they would exist as we know them.

Obviously the racial division is problematic to us in the ROC. And I would like to see it dissipate somehow, sometime. But it is a minority culture under constant threat by an anglo majority, and I think that if they hadn't been so successful in protecting themselves, we would be quite sympathetic. I don't want to beat up on them because they have managed, to date, to pull off the imposible. The degree of the BQ's continued success suggests that those who they ostensibly represent (who, in the end, are the ones that matter) consider them anything but useless.

If there was an Alberta party (putting aside for a moment that arguments could be made that this is what the Reform Party was .. but we could have that conversation and I would argue that they were ultimately successful, themselves) I might disagree with them, but they would be hardly useless. For one, these regional parties point to a rift that federalism as currently imagined is not equiped to heal until we have a larger national conversation - all over again .. and it will be bloody painful - about just what this federalist vision entails.

Even Ontario is starting to talk like it wants out. Newfoundland and Labrador. A new united atlantic province party has just developed. Alberta. BC.

Quebec is unique in that it has gained disproportianate power and in that it does identify along racial, linguistic, and cultural lines. That disproportianate power can only be attributed to the BQ, though, can it not?

We are knocking at this door right now. Whoever it was who said it, said it well: Harper doesn't hate Quebec, he just wants what Quebec has. The BQ and the CPC may disagree on a lot, but they have a lot of common ground on their dig-into-your-soul fundamental core issue. Not useless. Crazily relevant.

[leaving aside the McKenna stuff - the idea that lefties could be compeled into the McKenna camp just seems too bat-shit crazy to me]

[SaggyBalls]

"I'm not thinking about what's good for Canada, I'm thinking like a political party."

This is exactly why the Green Party is bound to remain relatively powerless as a party, and only serve to empower its voters and their sensibilities.

I wonder what would happen if the other parties started thinking about what's ultimitely necessary and good for Canada and worked toward it instead of thinking like political parties.

Maybe there'd be less bellyaching on Talk Radio by people that think they understand more than they really do.

[phishtaper]

Maybe there'd be less bellyaching on Talk Radio by people that think they understand more than they really do.

unlike all of us here

[Thorgnor]

Haha

In that case, yeah, unfortunately kinda useless, yeah.

Well, listen, I just can't square this. I can't fathom how the Québécois would be better off if the BQ hadn't existed these ~17 years, or even if they would exist as we know them.

Obviously the racial division is problematic to us in the ROC. And I would like to see it dissipate somehow, sometime. But it is a minority culture under constant threat by an anglo majority, and I think that if they hadn't been so successful in protecting themselves, we would be quite sympathetic. I don't want to beat up on them because they have managed, to date, to pull off the imposible. The degree of the BQ's continued success suggests that those who they ostensibly represent (who, in the end, are the ones that matter) consider them anything but useless.

If there was an Alberta party (putting aside for a moment that arguments could be made that this is what the Reform Party was .. but we could have that conversation and I would argue that they were ultimately successful, themselves) I might disagree with them, but they would be hardly useless. For one, these regional parties point to a rift that federalism as currently imagined is not equiped to heal until we have a larger national conversation - all over again .. and it will be bloody painful - about just what this federalist vision entails.

Even Ontario is starting to talk like it wants out. Newfoundland and Labrador. A new united atlantic province party has just developed. Alberta. BC.

Quebec is unique in that it has gained disproportianate power and in that it does identify along racial, linguistic, and cultural lines. That disproportianate power can only be attributed to the BQ, though, can it not?

We are knocking at this door right now. Whoever it was who said it, said it well: Harper doesn't hate Quebec, he just wants what Quebec has. The BQ and the CPC may disagree on a lot, but they have a lot of common ground on their dig-into-your-soul fundamental core issue. Not useless. Crazily relevant.

[leaving aside the McKenna stuff - the idea that lefties could be compeled into the McKenna camp just seems too bat-shit crazy to me]

I absolutely agree that it is these regional parties that invigorate the political landscape in Canada and point out both failure and success. However, I think that they do this best when they move the majority with them, fringe parties don't do that. May should run for the Liberal Leadership, it would cement the reality of "green" thinking in the party, screw the Greens if the Libs make the changes that these guys won't.

Likewise to the NDPeanut Gallery. For all the change they have affected they most likely would have made a greater impact had these same candidates run as Libs, got in to Parliament and then decided to vote their conscience. The reason that these little parties exist is the same reason why the Libs haven't moved forward, the ability of money and power to keep things from moving, to anchor and to self-legitimate.

The Liberals are looking for a new leader and the best candidates are running for other parties.

Now for a moment imagine if the old Conservative party had listened to the minority of Quebecois in their ranks who pressed for change and instead found the staunch wings of the party resistant to change. Strangely enough these guys had the money to make it happen and whoosh no more old Conservative party, hello BQ.

Clearly the best way to go is on your own when the winds blow with you, but when they blow at your face it's best to stand in a crowd.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Guest

[SaggyBalls]

Stand in a crowd?

Just get some vaseline.

[Thorgnor]

Very green... tosser.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Guest

[d_rawk]

Those are good points, T.B. and it looks like we've got common ground to stand on.

I just wanted to address this point:

For all the change they have affected they most likely would have made a greater impact had these same candidates run as Libs, got in to Parliament and then decided to vote their conscience

They would never survive the whip and their conscientious voices would be left excluded from politics or they'd have to form their own party. Which, as it happens, they did.

[d_rawk]

The great ongoing orgy of post-mortem examinations about what went wrong for Stephane Dion and the Liberals in the federal election has arrived at some surprising conclusions.

Perhaps the most bizarre is the notion that is gaining currency: That the two "left-wing" parties should unite.

By "left wing," the people putting forward this suggestion presumably mean the Liberals and the NDP.

It all sounds so seductive.

If only those pesky New Democrats would get on board and stop splitting the vote with the Liberals, Dion would be prime minister and the rightful order of things would be restored in this country.

After all, it was the unite-the-right movement in the '90s that eventually brought Stephen Harper and the Conservatives to power.

But the Liberal and New Democratic parties are very different entities. And it wasn't so much a union as a reunification for the right after the 1987 schism caused by the founding of the Reform Party.

While Western conservatives felt alienated from their eastern brethren, ideologically they were not that far apart. They'd all been one big happy family. OK, scratch the happy bit. They were once a big fractious family.

Yet it took years to heal the wounds that separated them.

How, then, can two parties with such different histories and such disparate philosophies as the NDP and the Liberals ever find common ground?

Provincial New Democratic Leader Howard Hampton scoffs at any notion that the parties can get together.

"I don't think anyone would describe the Liberal party as 'left,'" he said.

Hampton says part of the reason the Liberals ran into problems during the last campaign is it's the party that in the past has relied most heavily on corporate contributions to its election coffers.

New election financing rules -- brought in by a Liberal government -- have curtailed that.

"Anyone who would describe a party that has to have big money from Bay Street in order to run their campaigns as a left-wing party is obviously out of touch," he said.

And let's be clear here: The NDP is a socialist party with deeply held convictions among its members about things like trade unions and social justice.

The Liberal Party, on the other hand, tends to meander from left to right to centre. You are never really quite sure what kind of a political animal it is on any given day.

U of T political science professor Nelson Wiseman says although there have been accords between Liberals and New Democrats in the past, the NDP doesn't see the Liberals as its left-wing soulmates.

"In Canada, unlike a lot of countries, our Liberal Party is ideologically schizophrenic. There are periods when it appears right wing. There are periods when it appears left wing," he said.

"In the '90s, when Martin was cutting social transfers to the provinces, was it left wing?" he asks.

Provincially, until the 1970s, the Liberal Party was more right wing than the Conservatives, he said.

Some observers may see a merger between the two as a natural outcome of the political ambitions of former Ontario premier Bob Rae.

After all, if he can go from being a socialist premier to a chief contender to replace Dion as Liberal leader, there is a certain logic that says you might just as well combine the two parties.

Tell that to provincial New Democrats burned by Rae's defection.

He was the guy who turned his back on the traditional NDP union base when he introduced Rae Days in this province.

Ironically, he has recovered -- and gone on to greater political glory. Who knows? He may yet become prime minister. Yet 13 years after the demise of his government here, the New Democratic party he turned his back on has yet to recover from his legacy.

What people are really suggesting when they say the left should unite is political principles don't count. The only thing that matters is the defeat of Stephen Harper.

It may be politically pragmatic. But to suggest New Democrats would blithely cast aside their core values and party ethos to throw in their lot with the Liberals is cynical at best -- and political suicide at worst.

Interesting to find this in the Toronto Sun

[Thorgnor]

I agree, with one little thing to add... the Liberals often went right during ruling to quell major voter dissatisfaction. Rae did the same and alienated his idealist core. Ruling is done from center, campaigning is done from ideals, some people are better at camapigning...

What the Libs need to do to unite the left is move left idealistically while opposing the government, the best way to force a type of unity would be to agree, and idealistaically the Libs and NDP often do agree, the NDP however is I think a little less pragmatic. If the grass really is greener then...

Edited October 24, 2008 by Guest

[phishtaper]

all of this talk is pointless. why reinvent the parties, why not reinvent the system. we need electoral reform. the first past the post system is antiquated. the world is a buffet not a few piles of mediocre bag lunches.

[Birdy]

or why not work together in minority governments and make our political parties shape us and not themselves?

the system doesn't have to be about who sits in the PM's chair. all have a voice that's rarely used.

if those in opposition feel strongly about the crime bill, force the Conservatives back to the drawing board.

Hold government's accountable, for the love of god.