Joni Mitchell: Dylan’s a ‘fake’

[Esau.]

Joni Mitchell is having trouble seeing both sides now when it comes to Bob Dylan. Most music fans consider the twosome among the most influential and seminal artists of the last 50 years, and place Dylan at the absolute pinnacle of the singer/songwriter pantheon. Mitchell does not hold him in such high regard.

In an interview with the Los Angeles Times that ran April 22, Mitchell called Dylan a fake. After the reporter, Matt Diehl, commented that both Mitchell and Dylan had altered their given names, Mitchell blasted Dylan with both barrels: “Bob is not authentic at all. He’s a plagiarist and his name and voice are fake,†she said. But she wasn’t done yet. “Bob is a deception. We are like night and day, he and I.â€

She further goes on to explain that her name is simply a nickname derived from her given name, Roberta Joan Anderson, combined with her married name, from when she married Chuck Mitchell. Dylan was born Robert Zimmerman.

Mitchell doesn't clarify the plagiarism accusation, but a number of outlets have connected the dots to a New York Times 2006 article that notes the similarities between Dylan's lyrics on "Modern Times" to those of confederate poet Henry Timrod.

Mitchell didn’t reserve her vitriol solely for Zimmy, oops, we mean Dylan. Commenting that Rolling Stone named her “Old Lady of the Year†in the ‘70s for her alleged number of lovers, she added, “Grace [slick] and Janis Joplin were [sleeping] with their whole bands and falling down drunk and nobody came after them.â€

On a side note, at least Mitchell’s affairs of the heart inspired some wonderful music. Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young’s sweet “Our House†was allegedly written by Graham Nash about his relationship with Mitchell, while her songs “Car on a Hill†and “Help Me†are rumored to be about her affair with the Eagles’ Glenn Frey. “A Free Man in Paris†is about David Geffen.

In the L.A. Times piece, the only person getting away unscathed is Jimi Hendrix, whom Mitchell calls “the sweetest guy.†As far as the rest of us Americans, Mitchell, a Canadian, doesn’t seem to have much use for us for the last 30 years. She says her later work “is set against the stupid, destructive way we live on this planet. Americans have decided to be stupid and shallow since 1980. Madonna is like Nero; she marks the turning point.†Ouch.

According to his representatives, Dylan was unavailable for comment. Mitchell’s rep did not respond to a request for a comment. Perhaps Mitchell’s words speak for themselves.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/36741933/ns/entertainment-music/

[Davey Boy 2.0]

silly, petty

[hey now]

i felt the same way as mitchell when i first heard modern times but then i got to thinking.

there is tradition in the borrowing of blues licks and lyrics almost the same hand me down method of the old plantation working songs and the ol'timey stuff from the hills.

maybe what's a stake for me then is the legitimacy of dylan invoking the borrowing tradition.

what i came up with is two things which ultimately made me disagree with what mitchell says about dylan regarding modern times.

one is that bob is becoming somewhat whimsical in his songwriting...i see proof in the live performances (nudie suits et al)and stuff like must be santa which came later and is almost parody (in a good way)...the jester.

two is that bob doesn't give two shits about being a poet laureate and has seen too much to attempt to stay on top of a pile of profundity.

both of these possibilities are in stark contrast to the publicly stark and deep joni mitchell...

[Esau.]

Bob definitely has a more humorous, or less serious side to things now-a-days that's for sure. I noticed the biggest changes seem to have occurred after he started doing his radio program. Which really seems to have allowed him to show a side of himself perhaps otherwise unknown to many people.

As for the whole plagiarism/song theft stuff. Every decade Bob has been accused of stealing lyrics, songs and even chord progressions etc.

I think Joni is off her rocker.

A large part of the folk/blues/bluegrass genres were borrowed or stolen (however you look at it) from somewhere/someone else. A lot originally from old English, Irish or Scottish ballads. Being a big fan of the pre-war music era, I hear it a lot in many of those old recordings and with some minor digging could probably offer up a large list of songs, especially within the blues & Appalachian styles for comparison and scrutiny.

A good example that pertains to Dylan is 'Wagon Wheel' by Old Crow Medicine Show. Dylan is credited for originally penning (but not completing) the song known then as "Rock Me Mama'. Ketch Secor (of OCMS) finished writing the song and called it 'Wagon Wheel'. The original incomplete version can be heard on the bootleg "Peco's Blues", which is the outtakes of "Pat Garrett & Billy The Kid". That's the same recording where Ketch first heard the song.

That song is rumored to have been stolen. For example, there are claims it was Arthur 'Big Boy' Crudup's 1944 version of 'Rock Me Mama' that Bob got it from. Crudup's version has been compared to Curtis Jones earlier song of the same name. They even share some of the same lyrics - "rock me mama, like a wagon wheel". - In fact, the whole 'Rock Me Mama' thing could easily be compared to the song "Rock Me Baby" since they all have the same bluesy vibe and many of the same lyrics (and that dates back to the early 1900s). And most of those song lyrics were borrowed and/or inspired by earlier songs.

The paths of a lot these songs are so hard to follow and in many instances downright impossible, almost always resulting in one person being given writing credit and somewhere a long the line someone comes along saying the song is older and written by someone else. :dazed:

Anyway, that's my weekend ramble.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

hey hey hey!

aren't you supposed to be fishing or something?!?!?

[Esau.]

meh - don't get me started on that. Why some women decide to go into labour when a boat is rented is beyond me.

[Blurry]

I've heard Dylan himself say he's written many of his songs by taking old Carter family songs and then just start changing chords here and there.

Plagirism is one thing but being influenced/inspired by others or something you've heard is completely different IMO.

I can't imagine anything is completely authentic anymore.....it's usually derived through some outside influence.

[Jaimoe]

Robert Johnson "borrowed" from Son House and stole his soul-selling legend from Tommy Johnson (who was another of his big influences). Blues box-scales on the guitar were shaped from slave plantation hollers. It all comes back to the blues, at least it once did. Old folk isn't any different with the borrowing of old folk melodies and traditions. Joni's bitterness has poisoned her judgement if not her big mouth. And she's gone after the wrong Dylan anyway. Jacob is the real fake.

[skelter]

Joni Mitchell sure isn't plagiarizing. Those fucked up tunings and chords she uses are so unique they're completely inaccessible - to my ears anyways.

I shouldn't sound like I'm disrespecting her, I just can't get into her at all ...

And, yeah, in cahoots with everyone above, folk music is all about plagarizing. Steal a lyric, steal a melody, steal a whole song and write two new verses ...

Edited April 25, 2010 by Guest

[Jaimoe]

I think the great Les Nessman said it best after he interrupted Venus tutoring a young gang-banger in a memorable scene from WKRP in Cincinnati:

Les: If the Beatles are the construct of modern music - and I use that word "construct"

incorrectly - surely they were given birth to by Elvis Presley, a giant for sure, but the

product of the black experience. Ergo - and I use that word correctly - blacks created

modern music! Scratch an Allman Brother, and you have black. Scratch Billy Joel [pronounced

Joe-well], and you have Howling Wolf! I could go on, but my mother is in town. Let's just

say that every white rock and roll musician working today should take half of his or her

paycheck and mail it directly to Chuck Berry. At least that's what I think, and I won't

even go into jazz. Arnold, enjoy your visit to the station. Venus, nice visiting with you

too! (He waves goodbye enthusiastically and exits.)