Conservative principles

[Alexis]

i'm not sayin there should be NO taxes, we have to have em to function as a society, BUT, corporate and business taxes should be competitive with a world market if we want to attract or retain international business.

if i own a company that has the oppurtunity to operate in another country, i'll choose the country with the lowest taxation rate. that's a smart business decision. however, if years later, i want to run the country, it MIGHT be a nice PR move to pay the difference in the taxes between what i would have paid and what i did pay. and if the amount was really big, maybe i wouldn't run at all if it was going to be a big, huge, deciding factor kind of issue, which, in reality, it isn't.

[Birdy]

i'm sure i could find a few volunteers around these parts

[d_rawk]

As someone in the Globe recently said, though, if it weren't for the taxes, who the hell would clean up the dead skunk on our street?

Right, or maintain the highways that most companies rely on to move product and materials, as another example. Trucks by far are responsible for the greatest wear and tear on the roads, and excessive corporate tax cuts are basically a way of shifting those costs onto the average individual. It essentially amounts to: "You can work for this company, but you are going to be responsible for their operating costs. You won't get a share of the profits, mind you. But you can underwrite the infrastructure out of your pocket while they make a killing."

Smoothedshredder: Gotcha. I see what you meant, now. Yep, Parizeau was kinda responsible for the roads (in a roundabout way ... I believe it is a municipal responsibility). The roads in Quebec are still awful.

My understanding of Parizeau's visibility during the referendum is that it was because it was solidly a PQ affair (it is the Parti Quebecois that calls referendums, not the Bloc), but Parizeau was later pressured into handing over a lot of authority of the sovereignty 'movement' to Bouchard because Bouchard was more charismatic. But I'm far from an expert on that issue.

[SmoothedShredder]

As someone in the Globe recently said, though, if it weren't for the taxes, who the hell would clean up the dead skunk on our street?

Money has been a source of distraction for both those who have it, and those who don't. What are the alternatives to tax? Shall the members be responsible entirely for their own travel, what about the buildings where the meetings take place, should they be maintained. Regardless, it should always be held close to any negotiation/transfer of mullah, that money is not and ends... its a means... and here's where your morality ought to stand up.

or...

Someone could walk down the street... pick up the skunk and do it themselves... which they don't... why? Cause they love the government... and they love that they do things for them, and all a person has to do is hand over the coloured paper...

Then it becomes a question of how easy is it to get the coloured paper... aka Opportunity. Canada, in relation to the rest of the world, does ultimately provide everyone with a good opportuinity to obtain the coloured money... most require a commitment of time, effort, and team work. We are all in it together, which is symbiotic to the Government in general... which is why the (me/entitlement) generation really gets me down. Nobody really has anything good to say, unless its "good for me". {not trying to get into an argument about egoism... more sociological and in relation to the changes due to the rise of the '"echo" and the bunnymen' generation... plastic 80's make me shudder.)

I like paying tax... I know it needs to be done... And by the sounds of how most people are so outraged at what they pay, forevering crying "it's too much.", I'd suggest they're a little shortsighted, worrying more about their own personal accounts then that of the team/government.

Conversely, when the Government starts spending money in places it shouldn't... it starts behaving in an unhealthy way. This cannot be anymore clearly seen than in AdScam... people's who's duty it was to fight for the team used it as an opportunity to help their bank accounts instead of the team. What they have done to hurt Canada will only be healed by the passing of time and the tendacy to forget.

So hopefully we can all agree that we ought to pay a tax for a government, or two or three, or as many as there needs to be to get a hold on all this shit, and makes sure this planet turns into a welfare state (and one where the French and religious and potsmoking sexcraved heathens aren't as bad mouthed as much as they are)... I have a funny feeling they are all the same person

[scottieking]

Bravo Shredder for an intelligent explaination of why you are parcipating in the electoral process. I too struggle with federalism, but at the end of the day when it comes down to it, I cannot in good conscience open the door to allow a party into power that will reverse any of the social progress we've made as a nation. Do not be fooled. The conservatives are a values based party. Many of their supporters will see this election as a signal to push their regressive ways back into the Canadian consciousness.

Interesting as well your response in regards to what you were doing today. How's a Conservative government going to treat the pot smokers of Canada?

Truly, you have made some extremely vaild points. And at the end of the day, it's sounds like you want a Conservative minority, which is fine with me as its powers will be restriced. My fear is that this need for "cleaning up" the bureaucracy will lead to what happened in Ontario, a Conservative Majority, so full of itself and its master plan that it truly separated itself from the voice of the people , laid out laws with almost a complete disregard for the common good and the social contract, and in the end, left its citizens worse off than when they were found. My fear is 8 eights of conservative government and it may begin in less than 2 weeks time.

[djmelbatoast]

It is depressing to hear people say that they would sell out thier principals as long as it is a good bussiness decision.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

i'm sure i could find a few volunteers around these parts

I didn't mean the skunk that you can't fit into a pipe .

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Someone could walk down the street... pick up the skunk and do it themselves... which they don't... why? Cause they love the government... and they love that they do things for them, and all a person has to do is hand over the coloured paper...

I know what you mean, and I'm all with Utah Phillips, e.g., and other anarchists who say that the best kind of government is with people who figure out how to do things themselves and solve their own problems.

We also live in a stratified, differentiated society, where people have jobs and other things in life that block them up when they have too much to deal with. Personally, I think garbage collectors should get more coin for what they do than, say, middle-management types whose jobs consist of pushing bits of (nice, clean) paper back and forth across desks.

I think what we all might crave is transparent government, where shit like the Sponsorship Scandal couldn't happen because it would have been attempted in broad daylight. And unfortunately, once we make those little x's on those little bits of paper, lots of us just stop paying attention to what the people with their names beside the x's do, in no small part because we're too busy with what we have to do to follow up. And then we're back to the problem of having to deal with that infernal skunk.

[d_rawk]

Hey Huxy -- are you ever going to make a run for office?

I'll offer my help, such as it is, to your campaign. Even if it is just stuffing envelopes and answering phones.

[Im going home Donny]

get a room.

[Alexis]

when you're a business person, your principles are to make money. to run your business with the biggest bottom line you can. no one's selling out their principles to avoid higher taxes. you sell out on your principles little by little as you rise to the top and don't even notice. you compartmentalize and tell yourself, this is just a job, not who i am and blah blah blah. once you're there at the top and making those kind of decisions, your principles are already gone. that's why i got out.

that's the problem with business itself. business looks out for business, not those that make it work like the labourers, the consumers and the community...got a better plan on how to run the world? let's hear it.

[SmoothedShredder]

got a better plan on how to run the world? let's hear it.

Internet voting with biometrics... one vote per-day... instant results (when polls close), and for issues such as gay marriage or the referendum, the vote happen once a year for five years until each of the five years garners the same results. This would knock some of the cobwebs out of parliament and democracy in general.

I steal all my good ideas from the Naomi Klein Film "The Take".

[d_rawk]

The flags of convenience are about more than taxes, too. Relaxed safety laws, relaxed environmental laws, relaxed labour laws, etc..

Alexis makes good points. And wouldn't the CSL Group / CSL be vulnerable to legal attack by its shareholders if it weren't to do what is necessary to maintain a competitive edge and to maximize earnings? I would think that the 'principled' stand would be a violation of their mandate, and the unprincipled stand the only one they can make. Such are affairs and the peculiar priorities we've made paramount over all others.

It is far from the only book of its type, but last year's "Greed Inc" by Wade Rowland (I hate the title ... makes it sound like a naive tirade) offers a very sophisticated analysis of the situation and no shortage of well-thought out reforms. I'd recommend it to anyone.

[edit:] And while I'm pushing books Smoothedshredder, it's American-centric, but if you haven't already read it: Vote.com and Judy Rebick's Imagine Democracy

Edited January 12, 2006 by Guest