d_rawk

Of course he does. He's not a bad man. He's just wrong. Lots of people are wrong and decent people.

That's totally true, and things aren't going to change as much as people fear. But one of the things with Obama - in a totally different type of system - is that he was and is beholden to Congress. In the US, they have a separation of powers, whereby the executive (President and staff) are isolated from the legislature (Congress, who make and pass the laws). Here in Canada, we don't have that. It's not as bad as it sounds - instead we have the principle of 'responsible government', which means if you are fucking up, we throw you out. But the executive (the Prime Minister and staff) and the legislative (the House of Commons) are merged. In the end, the Prime Minister of Canada actually has a lot more leeway and power over the going ons in this country than the President of the US does over his. In the past, Canada has been referred to as the 'friendly dictatorship' Harper has been kept in check since he was elected in the past because his government was in a minority position. There were more people from other parties to oppose him if he tried anything batshit crazy than there were people of his own to vote in favour of it. He would get out-voted. Besides being embarrassing, this can have real consequences - if the vote is 'serious' enough (a matter of Confidence) it means that an election is triggered. So you don't try to do anything controversial or stupid (this again is the principle of 'responsible government'). This time, he has a majority, so as long as he can keep his own people in line (which I personally doubt, but that is another story), he can pretty much do as he pleases. I don't think that Harper is as socially conservative as most people think that he is. In fact, I think that he is somewhat socially inept and doesn't even care about such issues. But his base supporters, many of them former Reformers, certainly are, and the fear seems to be that he will play to them and introduce all sorts of atrocious policy. I suspect that he will be annoying, will probably be in contempt again, and we will get over him eventually. He will do some damage in the meantime. For some fun facts: shitharperdid.ca

We agree then Hoorah for solidarity! I guess all she offered was not being BQ. How the world turns.

I see that and raise you: so then it doesn't matter if you are a white male or an asian female, at all

You had me until 'women' and 'diverse' .. why would women or non-caucasians have any difficulty speaking up to Harper?

As an addendum, the amount of people I've spoken to who have the various parties policy stances completely reversed is disturbing. Or the number who want to vote for the incumbent party without having paid any attention to its governance since the last election, because 'things seem to be going well enough'. Mandatory is scary. It vastly exaggerates support for the incumbent party - we would have Conservative majorities from here until eternity. If you are only ticking an X to avoid a fine, you are noise, not signal. Last I heard, there was question if she has even ever visited the riding! :laugh:

This.

That is true. I am happy to see the NDP out-strip the Liberals, but it something of a guilty pleasure, and my obvious ongoing contempt is not one of my finer qualities to be certain. I do think, however, that it is telling of how many Canadians feel. Which is something that they will want to address. I love the party of Trudeau, and not because I romanticize Trudeau. He had as many faults as anyone. Yeah, cancer. He's good now. I'd mis-understood the tired bit, entirely and completely. I'd understood you more to be saying hopeless and waiting to be put out to pasture. In the end, I got the result I expected, but that I am not happy with. But I wouldn't have been any happier with a Liberal majority. Heck, I wouldn't have been happy with any majority at all - NDP included. There is suddenly a lot of talk of a Liberal and NDP merger. Not just co-operation or coalition, but outright merger. I don't think most on either side want to see that happen in an equivalent to the unite-the-right Peter McKay sells out the PCs way. The NDP still has a soul. The Liberals do not. This is by design, and not one of my regular insults to the party. The Liberals are the big tent, pragmatic party - and pragmatism demands that you shift with the winds as the winds demand. The NDP actually stakes out a moral position and stays there unflinchingly. Which is fine if you happen to agree with them. If they get 10 seats from that position, they get 10 seats. If they get 100+ seats from that position, great! This will change - electoral success, and the promise of more, will erode the party's moral center. This one of many reasons that I believe in electoral reform. More parties who can actually say something, mean it, and stick to it and still get seats. As much as I don't identify with much of western Canada's concerns, and even if I think that they are simply backwards and wrong on a lot of issues (my own hubris), I think they got sunk with the unite the right deal. They no longer have any (Parliamentary) voice, but their numbers are legion.

Oh, that's right! Good point.

Fair Vote Canada anxiously awaits your donation.

I reserve judgment. FPtP is such a horribly flawed way to run a multi-party Parliamentary race that if you think that your vote doesn't really mean much and just want to stay home .. you are pretty much right, and why the heck not. But ouch. 60%. Can we fix this now, please?

Everything in Harper's speech seems designed to temper his base, and reduce expectations from the fervent. Or, was it constructed to ameliorate the fears of the populace at large? The sense that I get is that it was the former, not the latter.

Finally, the Green Party has won its first seat ever - beating out Gary Lunn in the Saanich-Gulf riding. Not. Too. Shabby. This puts an end to the televised debate participation issue. A seat in Parliament is the criteria. Done. Uphill battle still, to be sure .. without 12 seats the party is still at a major disadavantage. I sure do like May's version of the Green Party over Jim Harris' Green Party of Canada. Electoral reform remains on the top of their list - I am hoping that they and the NDP can hook up on the issue. Looks like the Liberals might need to come knocking back on that door as well. Good on them. Congrats.

Ouch. With all of the genuine sincerity that I can muster, I feel badly that you have to live with that man. I'm not normally the type to dislike people unequivocally .. but .. wow .. that guy. And Baird. Sorry Beats My usual and predictable rant omitted. Although this time, even with the NDP + Green vote combined, he crushed.

.. and killed their own in the process, knives still shiny from the blood. I am decidedly not happy with the idea of a CPC majority. I am, however, simultaneously somewhat non-plussed but also elated with what amounts to a once-in-a-generation shift in voter sympathies. I'm tired of bagging on the Liberals - if even I'm tired of it by now, it seems to me that they are close to coming home. It was, interestingly, the Liberals who killed pro-rep, because they viewed it as a threat to their entrenched and perpetual power. They would have benefited from it, this kick of the can. (Not that benefiting from it is the right reason to do have done it .. the right reason to have done it is because it was the right thing to have to done. But that ship sailed. Please don't make me say the words 'democratic deficit' - those words lost all meaning in 2004 when Martin uttered them every second sentence, at the same time as the party brass raped democratic process repeatedly in the mouth.) The dog-house can't last forever. The Liberal Party eats its own (doesn't, and never, eats its own dog-food .. I mean that it devours its under-performers in a ritualistic celebration of destroying its weak) so it is just a short matter of time to a new leader and new approach. I feel comfortable that it has paid for its sins. It will be interesting to see if it is even still relevant. This notion that the Big Red Machine is the innocent and lovable under-dog is the product of short-term memory loss and Harper fear. The CPC has had nothing like the scandals that the LPC has had. Given enough time, given the corrosive effect of unchecked power, I'm sure that they will. But they are nowhere close to getting to the fucked-uptidness level that the LPC got to at their height yet. Despite whatever wacky shit Harper has done. A majority makes it quite likely that the timeline will be sped up, and the CPC will try to cram in whatever batshit crazy things that they can while they can. But you can't blame them for winning. If I had to pick between a CPC majority or a LPC majority, I'd just go to sleep and say fuck it.

Thognor - who's tired now? I recognize that things look one way in SoOn that they don't look like in the rest of the country. But fuck tired. Just getting rolling. I've seen tired, and it looked like Paul Martin (who I think would be a *great* guy to be my boring father-in-law, certainly nothing personal against him.. we'd go fishing or something). Libs got smoked. Fuck me, tired.

That's what I came here for.

You are certainly recalling that correctly. There is a ballot number tab (strip) that is removed prior to handing the ballot back to you to put in the ballot box. If I had seen this before voting, I would have paid a bit more attention -- I voted last week in the advance polls. But I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary, so I'd wager that the ballot number was stripped off of mine as well. The person who I was with when I voted assures me that they did tear the strip off of both of our ballots.

That's a solid point. I think what is happening is that the tone works well for Harper given who his base is. That is going to sound insulting to Conservative supporters (are there any here, besides my friend Birdy?), but I think it is actually the case. And I think it plays ok with the rest of Canadians, for the following reason: Yes. The perception of such, at least. The 'natural governing party'. The guys who do no wrong, because shit, people are going to vote them in anyways. I suspect you are right - Ignatieff's smile was probably more one of frustration and 'are you serious? you must be kidding me!'. I think that unfortunately, they have a lot to live down before they can make that face without people thinking that it is uncalled for and simply rude. I agree with the 'amped' bit, for sure. I think part of the reason why Layton came off well this time is that he didn't sound like a rabid dog. And he seemed much less scripted - usually he follows his lines so closely that you want to just say 'shut the fuck up and speak for yourself for once'. Part of that, though, is that the party has always recognized the problem that it does not get equal coverage. It is the same problem that the Green Party is experiencing, although the Green Party is experiencing it more, now (about equal to where the NDP was 10 years ago). You are only going to get 12 seconds of coverage on the broadcasts. Make your point, make it succinct, and make it fast so that they can use it. Layton's team seem to be feeling like they have a bit more breathing room than they used to. And they are probably correct. Call to mind how frequently Mansbridge used to shut them down. I love Mansbridge (who doesn't), but that shit wasn't fair. I don't know about the voting public who vote for the NDP being 'just as tired as Layton'. Maybe? I don't know. I know that I will be voting NDP only for the following reason - Paul Dewar is my MP, and I think that he has done a fantastic job and deserves to keep it.

It would be impolite to not ask ... what are they? Yeah, and good for him. Saw it coming from a mile away when he started going on about democratic process, but it is one of my pet issues. Glad to see it brought up in such a public debate. (Hey, where is Hux? We usually like to fight about PR) Unbelievably bad performance on Ignatieff's part, IMO. He wore a very arrogant looking smirk through the entire ordeal, and didn't really drive anything home. The last thing that the Liberals need is more proof of arrogance. I've always been hard on Ignatieff. I've read all his books, and used to write essays about him. In the end, my estimation was that he was incorrect. This was long before he came back and ran politically. *But*, I think he has way more capability than what he demonstrated last night. He should have smoked Harper. He is much more clever. I still think that Jack stole the night. Which is rare and weird.

For what it is worth, Ipsos Reid is saying that the Liberals remain unchanged at 23%, the Conservatives gained all the way to 40% (apparently, somehow, Harper came out gold) and the NDP climbed enormously to a 55% approval. This is pre-debate vs. post-debate approval ratings, which is why the the 23 + 40 + 55 doesn't add up to 100. You can like (or dislike) two parties at once. I'd post a link, but there doesn't seem to be anything online yet. Not that anything will change a lick at the polling station. Oh well.

Agreed, in large part. I have to say though, Layton has kicked some serious ass tonight. I recognize that it sounds like I am showing my bias, but I have always been critical of his public performances. I thought he did much, much better than his usual scripted bit. A little off the cuff, even. Duceppe has been surprisingly poor.

No scandal. I often don't read you right -- you are one very misunderstood man

I had two stupid nonsense posts in a row, and you were correct to call me on them, tongue firmly in cheek. Don't fuck off. There is no 'fuck you' here. I'd be more flagrant about my apology, except then we step back into the personal vs. private territory. Anyways, that was a shit thing of me to say. I hereby hand this thread back to its rightful owners.

I love you Beats, you know that. But fuck you.