Caution Jam JERRY NITE setlistS?

[Mr. Musicface]

I don't dislike Face it's just for someone who is savvy to the music business he sometimes strikes me as wilfully blind to the symbiotic relationship between musicians and journalists.

Okay, I'll bite.

I think the real problem zero is that you're wilfully blind to the relationship between the message and the manner of delivery, despite your occasional invocation of McLuhan. If you're talking about yourself as a "journalist" which I take it is what you mean here, frankly I think you're being naive by posting stuff on some message board and expecting it to be considered as proper journalism. If you want to deliver a journalistic message and have them read as such, consider a journalistic forum like a 'zine, your own website (gee, didn't you have one of those once upon a time...) or at least a friggin' blog. Otherwise you're down here in the muck with the rest of us normals not up on a pedestal, so expect to be treated as you treat others.

If, on the other hand I've misunderstood and you're saying straight-up I don't recognize the importance of the relationship between journalists and musicians, I'm not sure where you're getting that from 'cus it's simply not true. In case you don't know I work for a news organization and I was trained broadcasting. As well my wife is a professional writer and many of my friends are professional creative media types of many sorts. I also regularly tell lots of classic journalist/musician stories like Landau's "I've seen the future of rock and roll" article to the Barenaked Ladies press-getting opportunity when the were banned from Nathan Phillips. And I read Pitchfork and Spin and Exclaim and Magnet and so on, perhaps not as often as I should but I'm a busy guy, but I certainly wouldn't deny their importance. If I've ever given a different impression I'd like to set the record straight here.

- M.

[Hux]

Saying "take your meds" is nowhere near the "fu©k you/offs" that are commonly thrown at people in your posts zero...

Also, true we both like politics, but your "political" communication skills, ie. trying to forward a message/concept/idea to a larger group are absolute and total shite.

Noone is going to engage, let alone give two shits about what you're saying, when the message is littered with personal insults, etc...(duh)

If you really want people to listen, and be receptive to what you're saying, trade in the surliness and "look at me" excessively bulky masturbatory vocbulary, for a little respect and positivity and you may be surprised by the results...just a little tip....

[zero]

I appreciate your sage response Face. I am not unaware of the implications of medium and message, mark and bark in fact I could write many dissertations on that one. Perhaps what is coming off from me here is a violent backlash against the bureaucratic culture I am involved in that prides itself on not saying what you mean and covering your ass, in short business communication. I feel in many ways that Kerouac and Hunter Thompson blew overinflated drug prose for all of us. I like the genuine indignation that you get from Hunter and have consciously tried to develop a style distinct from his (although the irate 'mace your waiter for no apparent reason' approach certainly appeals). Not sure what I'm saying. I certainly don't think that what I do here is journalism, frankly I don't have time for journalism but I do have time for this so I'm not sure what that suggests. I guess the instant feedback is helpful where you don't get that on a blog or in a print piece. I just get genuinely offended when someone like Bouche dismisses my manifold contributions to this website. I push hits, I generate interest, I provoke dialogue and I take a good deal of grief for all of it. By airing my dirty laundry here I am asking for it but I am doing so in an effort at authenticity (in the existential sense) and transparency not merely self aggrandizement.

[Mr. Musicface]

Yeh you know what, forget what I posted before. What Hux said gets to the point without my nicey-nice bull. I'm such a wussy Libra sometimes...

[zero]

I will respond directly to your remarks Hux although if you read my last post I think I already have. You are steeped in the bureaucratic culture I am describing, you will advance up that ladder and make a better and better payscale by playing the game. You will however NEVER be able to make public prognostications about your feelings on this or that topic. That is the advantage of being a pundit, and frankly you will see me making the rounds as one sooner rather than later, rather than a bureaucrat. If you think I am unaware of the implications of business or bureaucratic style communication you are wholly wrong. I will likely write a book or series of articles on Bureaucracy and it's inherent fallacies and wastefulness. It is an ass covering culture, it is a blame culture, it is a culture concerned solely with 'optics' and who will 'wear' this or that failure. It is not an enlightened culture, a committed culture, an altruistic culture. Many many many government employees I know (I work in the Ministry of Agriculture and Food building) are equally frustrated by having to obsess over how they express themselves and fear at being misunderstood or misinterpreted. Around here I go in exactly the opposite direction, it is called passion, and say whatever comes to mind. The words I use to describe myself are my own words, they are the proper words and I am not thumbing through the dictionary every few minutes. I will not make excuses for investing a great many hours in my education and public speaking ability. I will always be a pundit and you will always be a mandarin. I will speak my mind and you will whisper in someone's ear.

[zero]

...And. Telling a hippy to fu©k off on an internet message board is in no way similar to telling someone affected by mental illness that they should 'take their meds'. Being a hippy is a lifestyle choice being mentally ill is not. Telling me to 'take my meds' (which by the way I do regularly and compliance is a major issue for this community a fact you apparently no nothing about and be glad you don't) is akin to telling a gay person to 'slap the cock out of their mouth'. I sincerely hope that you never counsel a political candidate to tell their opponent they should 'take their meds' then surely it will be you dealing with the shitstorm and being rebuked for your totally shite political communication. I am actually really looking forward to taking down your candidates now Hux thanks for that something to look forward to. I may also have to give up my Liberal party membership and local riding support if only because I have been so inspired by how much of a 'working for the man' cat you have so quickly become.

[Ms.Huxtable]

I just recalled how many lurker nitwits were at that show and how many people should be able to easily recall at least a handful of songs but either can't or won't bother.

So this whole bitch-fest started because you assumed no one would answer the question about a set list? Well, you know what they say when you assume Zero. Boy is it true in this case.

I know I'm not alone when I say that you are ruining the experience of this board Zero. I skip almost every thread that you post in. If you're really a journalist, wouldn't you want people to read your words instead of skip over them? Negativity breeds negativity and I vowed to avoid negative environments as much as possible. Your posts are rarely anything but negative.

You always brag about how much you contribute to this scene. I haven't seen one contribution from you personally. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE THAT'S SO DAMN SPECIAL? Do you really think posting in this forum counts as a major contribution? Give your head a shake. If you really want to contribute true content to the site, submit it to Bouche.

I'm totally sick of you thinking that your opinions mean more than anyone elses, and your constant highjacking of threads. This is a wonderful commuinity because people feel they can share their thoughts and experiences. I have heard that this forum may start enforcing the moderation of threads. It hasn't needed it since it's conception. How sad would it be if that becomes necessary?

Do us all a favor and keep some things to yourself. Self moderate, before it's imposed on you.

[bouche]

yipes...that's a very bold statement for making posts here.

"I just get genuinely offended when someone like Bouche dismisses my manifold contributions to this website. I push hits, I generate interest, I provoke dialogue and I take a good deal of grief for all of it."

More true to this, especially as of late, is that the 10 people you might be attacking are hitting refresh over and over. Believe me, the post counter in no way reflects hits or 'unique visitors' on this site.

If the posts that you're making actually affected site visitors coming, I'm sure we'd see plenty of returns in search engines pointing to your screen name or even real name. The site statistics would also show a direct link to your posts as entry points.

I've always said that I appreciate your participation and even instigation of some threads but I really don't think i am in anyway contributing to offending you even unintentionally.

The only times that I have ever pleaded for easing up on the hate are the only times I have ever cited your posts in any negative way.

You should look at my requests on the more respectful side of things because I have rarely, if ever, used the "CLOSE THREAD" or "DELETE POST" or "BAN" features to try and keep things cool. I'm sure you have experienced that elsewhere on the internet if you're treating boardies with disrespect. Instead of using board features, I post and politely ask, and I'm kind of sick of these coming back at me in a negative way.

[zero]

So for the record the passionate responses here are from 1) The partner of the board administrator (band mate of second detractor) 2) Second Detractor 3) Board Moderator. Frankly that is exactly who I would expect to respond because you are largely responding to what you perceive to be and rightly in some ways a personal attack. I face various personal attacks myself and have been defamed with a heinously prejudicial expression which I whole heartedly refuse to accept. That is my perogative just as yours is to skip over my posts. I doubt that it is the 10 people I am attacking generating the number of views but I know your point. Whether you like it or not I am contributing a great deal here. I am not going to write formal pieces for this site because it is not particularly credible for one, I am not compensated with passes or money and when I do I am more often than not reviled. Your remarks Ms. Hux are sound but clearly reflect your Ottawa centric leanings. Skipping over my posts is your perogative as it is anyone else's. I skip over the vast majority of what is written on this board because it is inane prattle (that's my perogative).

[Mr. Musicface]

zero, I've worked in some of the most bureaucratic organizations you can possibly imagine (Ontario Hydro pre- 90s layoffs, Bob Rae-era Ontario government, a couple large universities, etc.) and I understand the culture of ass-covering you're referring to as well or better than anybody, believe me. That's not what we're talking about here. What we're talking about (at least what I'm talking about, but I believe Hux and others are as well) is simple respect, which is always a two-way street. You can speak your mind and express your authentic opinion without belittling the opinions of others, or resorting to personal insults.

To wit: why exactly did you bring up my band or musical endevours (such as they are)? It didn't have anything to do with the topic at hand. Me, I'm fairly thick-skinned and I know your style so I can fluff it off, but if you pulled that kind of crap with most people they would have used that as an immediate excuse to dismiss you as an a$$hole and stop hearing you right there. And the sad part is it had NOTHING to do with anything we were talking about, it was just an unrelated cheap shot. Hux talking about meds might have been the same thing if he actually knew you took meds, which it seems he didn't. I still think it was a bit questionable, but it wasn't intended as being personal. If you're being authentic as you say, why try to kick someone's knees out?

For the record, if you're interested in the evolution of journalism, check out Dan Gillmor's We The Media. I've not got as far into as I should myself yet, but I've heard Gillmor talk and he has some terrific insights. Some of it is a bit self-evident for those of us who live online, but a lot of the trends he talks about are quite extraordinary.

- M.

[Mr. Musicface]

Sorry forgot the Gillmor link:

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/wemedia/book/index.csp

[bouche]

Was there a setlist last night, or should this topic be renamed to something else?

[Mr. Musicface]

Meh, I'd leave it if I was you bouche, but then I'm all about the bait and switch.

- M.

[MarcO]

In an effort to refocus, I'd like to take this opportunity to discuss exactly how I would cook and prepare some of the various contributors to this thread.

Mr Musicface, I've already discussed before. Being of a darker meat, I’d be inclined to slowly braise him in the oven or cook him rotisserie style, with lots of lemon and mint and oregano and yogourt. Sounds good doesn’t he? The rest I'd batter and deep fry and serve with french fries.

Zero, well Zero I would cut into tiny pieces and heavily salt the meat, to extract all the bitterness. Maybe make a kind of stew with him. I would definitely serve his liver with caramelized onions and wash it down with his watery, angry blood. Deep fried Luke nipples - you can't just walk into The Keg and order those delicacies, I tell ya!

Hux, I think - as a tribute to him - would best be served ground up and stuffed into eggplant halves. Also, I would pound flat those shoulders of his (you can’t ignore them, can you?) and make rouladen. I would definitely cut off the top of his head and eat his brains, just like a natural soup bowl. There's a lot of good eating on that Hux boy, lean as he is.

Now, I think it would only be appropriate to serve Bouche and Ms Hux in tandem. So, I'm thinking putting their pieces on skewers and grilled, tapas style. Being a born romantic, I think they should be served side by side with an nice smoky tomato sauce and on a sexy bed of lightly herbed rice. I'm willing to bet the soft, white meat of Sharon will contrast nicely with the more bold, manly tastes of Mike, resulting in a delightful experience. The scraps would make a beautiful terrine.

Hungry? I know I am!

[zero]

See I don't know why people slag these vocal debates. I really like where we get at the end of the road at least most of the time. I mean Face's remarks are sound and yes it was inappropriate for me to slag your band. I feel my output is my writing and it is slagged so I slag other people's output. That's about all there is to that. There is something to be said for 'considering the source' I suppose but that fits Bouche, Hux, and Ms. Hux more than you.

I get the point about simple respect and while sound I don't whole heartedly concur. Here is the thing and I have said this many times- this 'scene' needs a good violent shake. We are on the verge of something really significant but we need to understand the moment we find ourselves in. I do not see that happening at least in any sort of sustained way. You are also all falsely presuming that I want my points to be heard in a level headed fashion. Do you think it's a coincidence that I am referencing people like Hunter Thompson and Ween? What do those two have in common other than drugs? BILE. We live in a fu©ked up corrupt world. Corruption is sewn into the fabric of our everyday lives, it is made commonplace. Responding to corruption, hypocrisy and the like in a tone of righteous or unrighteous indignation is highly appropriate. I don't think that any of you want a world drained of vocal even angry advocates like myself. We bang our heads against the wall but we do it with gusto.

[Mr. Musicface]

Okay fair enough zero, and you know what, I totally get what you're on about with shaking things up. And personally I think it's fine, but then don't shake on the one hand and then whine on the other hand that you're so misunderstood and not universally revered as the genius you are. It's disingenuous, and it does betray your ego and thereby betrays your self proclaimed raison d'etre of championing "authentic" discourse.

[zero]

Here here! I think if I was as much of an egotist as you all make out I wouldn't be so ready to accept sound (and I qualify that) criticism of my character. People seem to lose sight of that perhaps because most lack the confidence to present their views fully in the first place and especially could not deal with vocal detraction.

[Hux]

....a few final thoughts, and this will be it from me:

1) zero, how are you not a "weekend warrior" writer?

2) Dr. Huxtable is no more.

3) You accuse me of being "steeped in the bureaucratic culture", it's obvious you simply just don't know the details of my line of work or how it fits into the "government/bureaucracy"...that's ok...I'm just not a bureaucrat...I've had sex with a few though.

Hey MarcO, what's for dessert?

[Mr. Musicface]

Awww, now there's the love! If I was there zero, I really would give you a hug, ya big softie, ya!

- M.

[Ms.Huxtable]

2) Dr. Huxtable is no more.

I was waiting for the journalist extrodinaire to uncover the dirt Hux. Maybe run it by his fact checkers....

Marco, sounds yummy although no dish with Mike and I is complete without hot sauce.

[Mr. Musicface]

2) Dr. Huxtable is no more.

Pardon? Sorry, whoisntplayingwithwhointhewhatwherenow?

- M.

[zero]

Do you think I need guidance in how to be more shrewd Hux? I'm not just asking you that I have asked my executive director and others who question the calibre of my political communication. I do not want to compromise my values any further in support of a failed notion of bureaucracy. I may not understand your work but I understand the political landscape and culture. I know what spin is and what controlling spin is. Frankly I suspect I am just plain better at spin than you but that's just me and I'm a fu©king egotist who has no respect for humanity.

As to Dr. Huxtable being defunct. A blip.

As to me being a weekend warrior writer you are correct. Am I supposed to give up now or cry or something?

In your arrogance (this is me talking) you have still not addressed that you made a grossly prejudicial remark (admittedly you perhaps didn't realize the severity I also think you likely did) and at least one level headed board member in addition to me has called you on it. How about owning up to your mistakes as I endeavour to. It's called Humanity, it's under H in the book.

[Mr. Musicface]

Wow, now I'm "level headed"? Shucks zero, you sure now how to get to a guy.

[zimmerman pt3]

so did Caution Jam bust out a phatty Mr Charlie or what?