Church Talk

[hamilton]

holy crap, if you read all that you deserve a gold star.

I read all of that. I expect a gold star from you when next we're both at PJC or somewhere... that's a pretty crazy and sad story.

social control is the primary purpose of the church.

This is particularly true of Christianity and Judaism.

The interesting thing that many Bible thumpers don't consider is the historical context from which it comes. The earliest books of the Bible (the Pentateuch, or the Torah in Judaism) were composed at a point in Hebrew history before they had kings, when the priests were the leaders of the society. Some of those books (Leviticus, I'm looking squarely at you, in particular) are filled with rules and such, and are the source of many of the rules and conventions followed by Christians and Jews today. The thing is, many of those rules had absolutely no religious significance - they were just rules that the society had to follow, and were likely appropriate for the time. But because they were written down by the priests, and ended up in the Torah (which is not just a religious text, but a sort of Hebrew history as well), they were believed to be the word of God. Fast-forward a few thousand years, and you've got Christians compiling the Bible, and including the majority of those texts... and two thousand years later, fundamentalist Christians think that rules meant to govern the daily conduct of ancient Hebrews are all still 100% applicable today.

I mean, "Thou shalt not kill" is a good one, but not everything still holds up today.

[Im going home Donny]

Great quote Tomfoolery...writing that one down. Thnxs.

[hamilton]

A few years back, Dr. Laura (remember her?) got into some controversy by stating that homosexuality is an abomination and cannot be tolerated under any circumstances, and cited Leviticus 18:22 as the source of this "fact". Some dude penned the following letter and posted it to the net. I like to use it when fundies want to argue with me...

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Law and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price fo her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

X.

[Im going home Donny]

Alexis....stop making eye contact with the freaks! I stopped a long time ago when it seemed every freak on the street had crazy words of wisdom for me....hmm that sounds kinda mean but....I still buy coffea for the freaks on the street....I'm just carefull about giving too much contact through the eyes.

[Freeker]

[hamilton]

Here's a really interesting read:

Did Jesus exist?

[meggo]

thanks for sharing alexis... that's quite a story.

[Kaidy Mae]

Rob, the difference between "energy" and "God" is basically the difference between science and spirituality. You cannot dispute that energy exists. It can be measured (even calories are a measurement of energy). God is far more subjective. You are right though to think they are similar. If you choose to call your belief in energy "God", please feel free to do so. I just shy away from that term due to all of the connotations associated with the word.

Oh, it may be time to mention here that I work for a Catholic school board. Yeah, and not just for fun either. I must admit, since I've started working here, my spirituality has never been stronger. However, it is mine. It doesn't really jive with the rest of the chosen here. I am constantly being challenged by them though. I do admire their perseverence. I thought they were going to lynch me for not going to their Advent celebration. Frankly, I'd rather stay at work. I have no desire to keep company with hyprocrites. Besides, I can't afford to be Catholic.

Bokonon: I remember hearing the Maitreya reference was from Hebrew scripture. However, Maitreya is a Sanskrit word. I've always loved it. I think I originally read it in a Kerouac novel. Not too sure though. That was a long time ago. I've fried a lot of brian cells since then.

Just some trivia here for any of you familiar with the Orillia area. There is a large Catholic church here in town (yeah, big shout out to Guardian Angels). Believe it or not, the cross on the top of the church is a cell phone tower. Hmmmm...and the church needs to collect money from me because...

This thread is making me tired. Time to punch the clock and go snowboarding. Peace friends.

[Kaidy Mae]

Dr. Laura (remember her?)

Oh man! I had totally blocked that broad out. What a total C-word.

My gay best friend would always use pages of Leviticus to burn one down when the Zig Zags were no more. Man, with the right buds, you can giggle at irony for hours.

[MarcO]

I did the Catholic school thing for grade school and high school. I basically went to catholic high school b/c that's where my friends were going; I really didn't know the bigger picture out there as far as my options went. There were some positives: being a guitar player, and not too timid to sing, I was roped into the school choir, an instructional endeveour to be sure.

But what I mainly remember from church are boners. My own. I have a vivid memory of being in Grade 6 or 7, at our weekly mass, and it was my turn to do a reading up at the altar. Unfortunately, at the exact moment I was to stroll down the aisle to the altar in front of my entire school I had achieved a personal tribute to Mt. Everest in the front of my pants as the result of some poor hot girl sitting in front of me for the service. I can still feel the sweat dripping off my forehead as I clutched my way down the aisle and up the stairs and stood there, praying (hey, when in Rome) that my Godly Chubby wouldn't cause lightening to strike St. Augustine's that afternoon, or cause all the little kids to go blind with shock and awe.

It's amazing that these days I can't remember to do laundry or what I had for lunch yesterday but I distinctly remember that big smelly Oktoberfest sausage from that day.

Can't say I was all that enthused with the whole Church experience and I still find it kinda spooky and creepy to attend one.

These days, religion is mixed into my life in an occasionally uncomfortable way, an occasional reminder that there are belief systems that will keep families separated and serves as a wedge, not a bridge. Me, I find all the God I need to get by in the streams and trees and babies and old people and music and art and Booche and food and dignity I see all around me everyday. Defining it further is counter-productive. It's too tempting to corrupt a belief system with politics and social warfare. I am constantly reminded, however, through good friends that a firm belief in Christianity need not negate a liberal social outlook and an active involvement in politics and secular community. Thanks, you know who you are.

[Kelly-Anne]

I grew up as a St Jamison follower. It’s small sect of disgruntled Anglicans who became fed up of the church and it’s slave like devotion to new technology during the late 1890’s in England.

The St Jamison’s believe that the industrial age was a tool that the devil used to enslave people into consumerism and away from Christianity. They saw the Anglican’s churches foray into the slums of Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow as the church becoming complacent with technology by administering to those worst effected by capitalism. They saw those slums as creations of evil and that the church should be abolishing technology such as mechanized spinning wheels and assembly line type production. The St Jamisons (about 1500 people) immigrated to the eastern townships outside of Montreal in 1895 to get as far away from industrialize Europe.

As such, my parents forbid me to watch television, ride public transportation, go to the movies, or use computers.

As you well imagine, this has create within me a deep repulsion to religions, but at the same it’s probably what draws me to the jam band scene. That spirit of “community” and in this case- the fact that Jam bands use natural and non-synthetic instruments.

At times I feel lost in Ottawa. It’s so noisy and busy, so unlike where I grew up. Now only if I could find a cool dude to share the winter with.

[gentlemonkey]

But what I mainly remember from church are boners. My own.

Today is the first day I've considered changing my signature.. thanks for the laugh marco!

[Lazlo]

That explains alot of the problems with catholic clergy.

[PalacePrincess]

by the way, bokonon, i'll have you know that i actually burst out laughing in my car the other day because the image of you as a little kid in church singing "we're not gonna take it" popped into my head. ::