Lets Give Stelco 1 billion dollars

[secondtube]

because they can't get their act in gear, and will just loose it anyways....

i dont understand how the government can be expected to bail out these companies that can't keep their doors open to start with....

how about cut those damn wages to the overpaid workers....like anyone on a line, working 4 of 12 hours needs to make 35 bucks an hour!!

(i know we've bailed out other companies, and i dont think we should have done it there either...)

what you think, should we spend a billion dollars to bail out Stelco?

[MarcO]

the question is, what is the cost incurred in suddenly having 15,000 people in the Hamilton area out of work? And that's just Stelco alone. There's also all those businesses that rely on those workers to keep their businesses afloat.

[secondtube]

so we institute a corporate welfare costing the tax payers a billion dollars.

they play the same game as the rest of the corporations, they have to play by the same rules...

i think a shift in upper management would be a better idea, get some serious new blood/faces in there....

They can't close, but they also can't expect the government to give'em a billion dollars.

[Blane]

welcome to the beginning of the end of Canada as a primary/secondary industry country. Simple math says we can't compete with countries that have lower standards of living in producing basic goods for the world market. We can't put tarrifs on Korean steel, but minimum wage in South Korea is about 2 bucks an hour. This leaves us in a tough position with our steel, garment, basic automotive, etc. industries. Part of the global "race to the bottom" in terms of treating labour as a means of subsistance AS WELL as a source for consumption.

[Esau]

Well, I'm sure I'll be labeled bias here since most of the work in my union comes from the steel mills, but if the Canadian gov't doesn't do somthing then I imagine its goodbye stelco (here in Hamilton) and since no one ever seems to want to buy it with the restrictions & regs the Canadian gov't puts on the sale of such a place to out of country buyers, it'll be tore down.The cost of which will probally be close near the same if not more.If you've ever worked for any length of time there you know what I mean.Not to mention the income lost, regardless, the Canadian gov't makes alot of dollars off Stelco.

As for overpaid workers, perhaps alot of the higher ups are overpaid, but with numerous family & friends in there I can say that $35 an hour is no where even close to the standard there for a line worker.

Like I said, I'm sorta bias being in the industrial construction part of my trade usually, without Stelco, we would also increase our (Hamiltons) unemployment rate, yet costing us even more money in the long run.Add to that the many smaller companies that Stelco owns (eg: Stelwire), again increasing the unemployment rate even further once the also are shut down.Which would also effect the unemployment rates in other surrounding cities.

Somthing has to be done, and I understand what your saying Steve, but by not stepping in it'll cost much more then a billion dollars in the end.

Lesser of two evils perhaps? I dunno.

[secondtube]

More than a billion dollars in the end....

that might be debatable....remember, some of these people will get jobs again...

Manufacturing is the hub of Ontario and it is slowly ebbing away to the cheaper labour countries like China and India.

But, we should do something about it. Look around. Most of the jobs being created these days are the low paying service jobs. Those jobs will not support our government's huge appetite for tax dollars, We all know how the tax system works. High income earners pay a disproportionate share of tax compared to the services they receive. Many lower income workers or those of no income actually receive more than they contribute.

That money has to come from somewhere and its not going to be from corporations alone. Corporations are very mobile these days and when the going gets tough, they just pack up and leave to a lower taxed jurisdiction like Mexico, China or even the Southern States. Workers usually remain and have to fend for themselves.

Now if the employees there don't want to do anything to help the company ( taking a pay cut , etc...), why should the tax payers? How much would 1 billion dollars mean to the healthcare system? How many times do you go to the hospital and wait hours on end to be seen by a doctor / physician. If they help out Stelco, why not help out the little guys then also? How many smaller companies go belly up? Does the governement help them out?

No... This is all a part of the risk of doing business, for good or bad... Maybe they should trim some "Fat" off and let the company and employees do something with regards to this, rather then expect the government to bail them out everytime. If they don't want to help themselves, why should we? Look what happened to Pittsburg years back when their steel mills closed... Is Pittsburg not prospering now?

Edited November 3, 2005 by Guest

[Esau]

More than a billion dollars in the end....

that might be debatable....remember, some of these people will get jobs again...

Umm, I wasn't speaking of the people working there.But, the cost alone of tearing down a place like that would be near close to a billion dollars.

Shit, it cost millions just to do a single reline on a blast furnace there (and theres more then one)& that takes three months to do with two 12 hour shifts of about 10 different trades employing hundreds of tradesmen working seven days a week.These are not even Stelco workers. (I know since I have worked on a few relines myself).Also the money that is lost while the blast furnace is down comes close to a million dollars a day.

Thats just in Hamilton.

Is Pittsburg not prospering now?

Not within the steel and trade industry.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Guest

[secondtube]

but that loss is to the company, not the economy.

And, when the company gets liquidated, it all wont be torn down...it'll be sold to smaller outfits, in order to make profit again....

its not like they are just going to bulldoze that whole area...

[secondtube]

Thats my point Greg. We can prosper again, and it doesn't have to be in the steel industry.

[MarcO]

More than a billion dollars in the end....that might be debatable....remember, some of these people will get jobs again...

well, having just some of those people getting jobs again isn't very desirable, especially considering the massive reduction in spending clout they will have when they go from working $25/hr to $11/hr. Unless we want to spend millions of dollars re-training them for higher paid positions.

[MarcO]

Thats my point Greg. We can prosper again, and it doesn't have to be in the steel industry.

let's remember that the #1 job industry in Hamilton these days is health care, not steel.

[secondtube]

ok.

so, if these people are going from 25 dollars an hour job, why can't they get another 25 dollars an hour job anymore?

two reasons. Either they are overpaid to start, or they are under qualified.

my father had a new job in four days, for two dollars less an hour. But he's a skilled tradesman.

If a lineman making 25 dollars an hour can only get a new job making 14 dollars an hour, that should tell you something.

the hundreds of skilled tradesman who work in stelco will find another job for virtually the same pay....as they are Skilled.

These people have worked their whole lives. its not like they can't get good paying jobs....when westinghouse closed, my uncle who was a lineman, and had no skill outside of westinghouse, went back to mohawk, paid by the government, and now works at dofasco, as a licensed tradesman.

[Esau]

Well, when you figure that thousands of people will not be working. Stelco employees, tradesmen that specialize in working those types of places, trucking that transports the steel.The numerous smaller mills that tool the products made there and the many outside trades that work in that place.I'm forgetting alot also.But, I say it will effect the ecomonmy, not just the company.Remember, stelco isn't only in Hamilton.

As for bulldozing the area, that has been proposed years ago, I forget what exactly the wanted to build there but the cost of which was to exceed a billion dollars so it was rejected to try and save Stelco, which we all know didn't turn out as well as planned.But I feel it'll cost us (Canadians) more if we sold it to an outside country (only people interested in it) or just close it.

Like I said, I'm sorta bias since I work within the industiral construction side of the trades.

[\/\/illy]

I'm surprised this has not been raised as an issue but doesn't anyone feel that it's the union that's crippling Stelco? Look at Dofasco for a comparison. They're one of the most profitable steel companies in the world. Now, it's true that they don't sell all the same products but there would defintely be a LOT of simularities in the way the businesses run. The union alienates the workers from the management. What sort of team atmosphere does that foster? (How can you expect to be successful if everyone isn't on the same team?)

[secondtube]

hey man, its ok...

i'm biased towards the other side of the coin, cause i see my friends working hard as hell in school, getting three and four year degree/diploma's, and coming out in debt to their tits...only to be mocked by people who are the same age, working at car factory/steel factory, making twice what we'll start at, already owning their own place, making Hordes of cash, and only getting the job because of someone they know, or their parents.

hows that for being biased?

[Esau]

Remember our gov't proposed they (Stelco) do the multi-trade training for workers there. Which is great for Stelco & Stelco workers, but when those workers aren't in Stelco it does nothing to help them outside of that field since they are only trained in that sorta setting, a multi-trade worker would have to restart a specific apprenticeship to be able to obtain an license in one specfic trade.Sadly, maintence multi-trade jobs are few & far between now-a-days.My union alone has seen the influx of folks who have been screwed by that decision when they lost their jobs there.

I sorta agree with Willy here, but to a small degree (I disagree that ALL unions are bad).The union in Stelco is terrbile, but its not the workers who made it like that, in my opinion.

As for people getting jobs in those places cause of people they know, I see your point. But that was also their own choice, I made my own choice, I didnt go to college & now work in the electrical union making very good money.No one helped me get in, I took the required tests, I put in the hours and I worked hard.But I do see your point Steve.I just don't see things that way.

[edit to add]

Sorry, I'm sorta all over the place with this post.

[edit to add redux]

I meant it was their own choice to go to college to end up in better paying jobs (not saying its a bad choice though), not the people who got in because of family.Its unfortunate that our gov't rakes so much money in off those folks Steve, especially since the promise of higher education bringing you higher paying jobs doesn't always work (less then more I guess). That certianly can't be blamed on the guy working at Stelco or Ford (for example) though because he was lucky enough to get in to those places, I feel thats more a finger that should be pointed at the gov't.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Guest

[TimmyB]

hey man, its ok...

i'm biased towards the other side of the coin, cause i see my friends working hard as hell in school, getting three and four year degree/diploma's, and coming out in debt to their tits...only to be mocked by people who are the same age, working at car factory/steel factory, making twice what we'll start at, already owning their own place, making Hordes of cash, and only getting the job because of someone they know, or their parents.

hows that for being biased?

I don't mock anybody. And I have seen both sides of the story.

I graduated from Carleton University with a History degree. Yet since my father was in the Canadian Auto Workers Union Local 707 at the Ford Oakville plant I was able to get work there.

Now I never wanted to remain on the line to be an autoworker, yet eight years later here I am. I will be able to hopefully work at the Ford Plant in Oakville for thirty years and retire at 53.

Yet I will have health problems that are often only found from people who work on an assembly line and have to work shift work. I will likely die 5 to 10 years before the average Canadian because of the stresses I was put through during those thirty years working at Ford. And I'm quite sure that Stelco with their environmental hazards are just as bad if not worse.

So I believe I deserve ever penny I get from Ford and I would not say I'm some Union Fat Cat or lazy or spoiled, why don't you see what I do all day long and see if you could handle it for thirty years.

It's a hard life and those poor workers around the world that are being taken advantage of by corporations like the one I work for, have to suffer with less. It's wrong and it's a problem that I will not get into in this initial reply, yet their human rights are being violated.

There is a saying in society that goes "It's a living," in Ford it goes "It's a dying." I go to many union meetings and before roll call they list off the number that die each month and it is often staggering to hear how many names are called.

Trade Labour and Unions in North America helped to make The USA and Canada what they are today, it is union grievances and gains during contractual negotiations that have given our society many of the things that we take for granted today. To cast off Unions as obsolete in our present time would be a huge mistake for the middle class of North America.

As Unions dwindle in size there is an argument that our middle class in our society will also dwindle. There is a direct correlation between the two.

People like my CAW president Buzz Hargrove look out for the average person, while corporations just try and find a way to line their shareholders with a little bit more money. I applaud his efforts and the efforts others like the NDP our one left wing party that has a voice in Canada. They actually care about the downtrodden in society.

To hear a bunch of "hippies" knock Unions, makes me think the world has changed drastically from an era long gone. Any activists on this board should know that it is Unions like the United Auto Workers (or in my case the CAW) have fought for the rights of humans in not only the society in which they live, but the world around.

And Steve, when it comes to getting my job at Ford because of my father, how is that a bad thing? It is one of the few benefits that a autoworker gets for his or her years on the line.

Doesn't this practice of nepotism occur in all levels of society. Bill Ford Jr runs Ford now, Belinda Stronach was side by side with her father at Magna for quite a while. Look at actors and musicians as well. It leads all the way to the steps of the White House. If this practice only occurred on a Union shop floor I could see your argument, but I really feel that it is a benefit that is well deserved for "making a dying."

In Union Solidarity,

Tim

[timouse]

I'm surprised this has not been raised as an issue but doesn't anyone feel that it's the union that's crippling Stelco? Look at Dofasco for a comparison. They're one of the most profitable steel companies in the world. Now, it's true that they don't sell all the same products but there would defintely be a LOT of simularities in the way the businesses run. The union alienates the workers from the management. What sort of team atmosphere does that foster? (How can you expect to be successful if everyone isn't on the same team?)

dofasco also kept up with technology and can make a better product for cheaper. dofasco went after a higher end market, and it paid off. stelco on the other hand has been pumping out volume of basic hot rolled steel using outdated technology.

as far as the union and wages go, there are a lot of really well paid jobs in manufacturing. some of it is extra pay on account of the soul destroying nature of the work. repetetive/line jobs should be paid well...i'm the engineering manager at a metal fab shop in toronto, and i've had to do production work when we get swamped...after 2 hours in front of a press making the same part over and over again i'm about ready to trade heads with a coworker if only to have something new to think about (but i'm a bit A.D.D. and don't do well with that sort of thing.)

edit to add...i just read tim's post above, and have to agree about the union angle. unions are being emasculated all over the planet, and while there is an over-the-top element in the union movement, without them there's no check and balance for corporate bloodyminded pursuit of profit for the shareholders.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Guest

[bradm]

For a gritty and intense story of life on an assembly line, go read "Rivethead" by Ben Hamper.

Aloha,

Brad

[Tooly]

hey tim you know my buddy Jeremy at ford? long shot i know, little skinny puke, jeremy weerdo

[TimmyB]

Hey Tooly,

What's his last name? I do know Ryan Gunson, whom we have spoken about before.

Tim

[Tooly]

yeah i knew you knew ryan,,, i think jeremy last name is weerdenburg or something along those lines, a dutch name

[TimmyB]

No I don't know any Jeremy by that name.

Tim

[Alexis]

hmmmm...i think there are a lot of intertesting points made in this thread...and i don't know if i'm going to make any, but what they hey...

first, my bias. i'm a 4th generation stelco kid. my father worked, and his brother still works at stelco. their father worked there. as did their grandfather. my mum works for stelpipe, a division of stelco that just transfered ownership 2 days ago.

i can remember my dad talking about being the 6th guy from the bottom of the list when he worked there back in 96-97-98. he had 20 years seniority and because of all the lay offs and let go's, 5 more people gone and it was his turn.

i can remember having to deal with the bullshit layoffs just before christmas as a kid. or the strikes, or the never ending threat of strikes.

it was thanks to a stirke that my uncle got his house. not the phat salary. someone got called back from lay off with less seniority than my uncle and he fought it and two years later got a $15,000.00 cheque.

do i think the union at stelco presents problems heck yes i do. all unions? yes and no. id on't know enough abut them to comment really but it seems good for workers in that they get compensated well and have a place to help them look for work, like how you told me it works greg. but at the same time, unions like stelcos driving up labour rates makes the product they work to make uncompetitive in price.

how do i feel about the bail out? i don't really know. from what i've heard in the media it's a lot to do with pensions as well as the general business practices of the company.

do i want to see 15 000 workers out on the streets in hamilton? no. let's be optimisitic and say that 50% of these people will be able to find employment within $5/hr of their old pay rates within 90 mins drive from hamilton. Now, let's take note that at least 65-70% of that 15 000 is a group of adults 40+. What do we do with the rest of them? Re-educate them in different but related fields? Remember that these are men, who may not have even finished high school. And they chose to not go the college route 20 years ago. You can't buy off the oldest ones into early retirement because their pensions are gone, or significant portions of them.

And that's only the people employed by stelco, none of the trickle down effect is taken into consideration.

Now let's talk about clean up. Cleaning up that land is going to cost soooo much money. whether the governemtn does it, stelco does it incurring more debt, or the company who buys it does it. if a buyer does the clean up that means that the property value is significantly decreased. I do'nt even know if the pollution levels in the soil will allow that land to be sold under government regulations.

I haven't talked to my uncle about any of this in years, but except for the summer time, there are SO few new hires there. When I was 18 and 19 I applied for a summer job at Stelco. I didn't get in despite my 4th generation status....despite my father being one of the most well liked and missed men in the plant. Nothin. And they HAVE to hire chicks for the numbers to look good.

Do i think the bail out is a good idea? i really don't know. but we've come this far, I think we should really see it through until the end with this thing. back in the 70's and 80's hamilton was the economic engine for ontario, maybe canada, who knows. and stelco was a big part of that. Has stelco paid into the purse what it's asking for now? i think so. is the alternative a huge problem that politicians being politicians won't want to deal with right now? push it off for the next guy type deal? heck yes. is that the right thing? i don't know. i love hamilton and i want to fix it....but i really don't know enough about all the problems, because they are so complex and involve so many different levels of business and government....bleh...i don't know.

[MarcO]

does Alexis ask a lot of questions and then answer them? yes, she does.

do I think that is annoying? no, I think it is endearing.

am I asking questions and then answering them? yes, I am.

does Alexis probably want to punch me right now? I would say so.

do I want to punch me right now? Yes, I do.

do I love beer? Oh fuck ya.

what is that thing next to me? It is a scanning machine.

should I be operating said scanning machine right now instead of posting on this board? yes, I should but I am a shallow horrible man.

did I enjoy the tuna salad sandwich I had for lunch? yes, it was delicious.

why do men have nipples? I have no idea.