x

[d_rawk]

Hah, majority CPC? Not a chance.

No offence, but the only thing as bad as a Conservative minority would be a Liberal majority. Without the NDP keeping him honest, Martin is prone to running his government further to the right than even Mulroney ever dared. Y'all aren't exactly the party of Trudeau anymore ...

... actually, come to think of it, Trudeau needed the NDP to spurn him on, too.

[Hux]

- Third country in the WORLD to legalize same-sex marriage

- A firm NO to US Missle Defence

- Yes to Kyoto

- Marijuana decrim on the table (but removed due to the minority situation, a sure pass in a Lib majority)

Where is all this right wing stuff?

So far on balance this gov't is more left-wing than Chretien's, AND more left wing than every industrialized nation.

Prone to turn left if anything...

[Booche]

UTICA!

[TomFoolery]

- Third country in the WORLD to legalize same-sex marriage

Yup - left. Even commendable.

- A firm NO to US Missle Defence

This is a sovereignty issue, not left vs. right

- Yes to Kyoto

I wouldn't be bragging about the Liberal action on this one, bro. Care to comment on the chances Canada will come close to blowing our targets by anything less than, say,... 25%?

Not that this is the Liberals' fault entirely. The appathetic tools that call themselves Canadian can stand and take a bow for that one.

- Marijuana decrim on the table (but removed due to the minority situation, a sure pass in a Lib majority)

Mmmph.

[d_rawk]

Third country in the WORLD to legalize same-sex marriage

In fairness, this wasn't exactly a get-up-and-go Martin issue. Since when does the Liberal party get to take credit for Supreme Court decisions that forced their hand? And 32 of the 59 Liberal non-cabinet members voted against same-sex marriage. That's 54%.

A firm NO to US Missle Defence

Won't argue against that. It took a lot of public pressure, but Martin made the right choice here.

Yes to Kyoto

Under Chretien, because he wouldn't have to deal with it. And it's not being dealt with.

Martin has been trying to weasel out since he took office. We are not going to meet the targets that we committed to, the way things are going. Once again, someone is going to have to force Martin's hand for anything substantial to get done.

Where is all this right wing stuff?

Doing to the Canada Health Act by stealth and complacency what the Conservative Party would be doing openly and actively, for one.

It will be interesting to see Senator Kirby's (Liberal) remarks tommorow.

So far on balance this gov't is more left-wing than Chretien's

Agreed. Although I suspect that had Martin been PM at the time, we would be involved in the Iraq war effort. But it's just a suspicion, so not worth much.

AND more left wing than every industrialized nation.

This has pretty much always been the case, even when we had Progressive Conservative federal governments. It's part of the quirky Canadian charm.

I'm not married to any political party. I like the Liberal Party in a lot of ways. I just like it more when they act like a liberal party than a PC one, and I see the best way for that to happen as a minority situation with some heat on them.

[bouche]

it all comes down to weed.

[Hux]

....here goes!

Missle Defence

This is a sovereignty issue, not left vs. right

Well, there are theoretical issues of sovereignty, but continental security and economic integration with the US vs. independent foreign policy and security is most definitely a left/right issue in the political arena, considering this decision has hurt the Gov't on the softwood lumber file is proof that the Gov’t sacrificed negative economic implications which those on the right would consider sacrosanct.

Kyoto

I wouldn't be bragging about the Liberal action on this one, bro. Care to comment on the chances Canada will come close to blowing our targets by anything less than, say,... 25%?

Well, my point was the Gov't said “yes†to Kyoto, not bragging about perfect implementation of Kyoto, I honestly don’t know if we’ll hit our targets, but we’ll try and this is a far cry from Bob Mill’s of the Conservative Party talking about Canada needing an “80 year plan to cut smogâ€, ie. Signing on to Kyoto would not be the actions of a Gov’t making a hard right turn.

Same-sex marriage

In fairness, this wasn't exactly a get-up-and-go Martin issue. Since when does the Liberal party get to take credit for Supreme Court decisions that forced their hand?

Well, any opponent of same sex marriage would tell you that the Supreme Court reference did anything but, and was not explicit in stating that it was constitutional, “flowed from the Charter†I believe was the wording, but the Gov’t could’ve asked for further clarification and held this thing up in the courts for years, but instead took the bull by the horns.

And 32 of the 59 Liberal non-cabinet members voted against same-sex marriage. That's 54%.

I think the answer to this is self evident = “non-cabinet members†exactly, the Liberal party was the only party to whip any MP’s into supporting this legislation, to the point where a cabinet minister actually resigned because he couldn’t support (Joe Comuzzi). And you assume because Cabinet Ministers and PS’s where whipped, and throwing out the 54% figure implies only 54% of Liberals supported this, I could go through the list of Cabinet Members and PS’s and assure you the vast vast majority supported same-sex marriage(most are gay anyway )

Doing to the Canada Health Act by stealth and complacency what the Conservative Party would be doing openly and actively, for one.

It will be interesting to see Senator Kirby's (Liberal) remarks tommorrow.

Well, there is a lot of delusional opinion out there about the CHA, that somehow Gov’t can step in and stop privatization, it’s a lot more complicated than that, jurisdictional issues are key (you try to tell Ralph Klein to close private clinics) and the recent Supreme Court Ruling that basically legitimizes the existence/need of/for private care only complicates anything the feds attempt. Basically, I don’t think any of the parties are honest about this issue, as the words “private care†are basically political poison, none of the political leaders right now would take the risk of a frank assessment of the current situation in health. One way the feds can act unfettered is to put more $$ into it (that was cut in transfers in the 90's) and that's been done.

Although I suspect that had Martin been PM at the time, we would be involved in the Iraq war effort. But it's just a suspicion, so not worth much.

Gimme a break, no to missle defence, but yes to Iraq? Harper wouldn't even commit to Iraq, and Martin would've?? – c’mon.

Canada has a more left Gov't of all industrialized nations

This has pretty much always been the case, even when we had Progressive Conservative federal governments. It's part of the quirky Canadian charm.

Well, my whole post was basically a response to you saying we’re further to the right than Mulroney, this statement:

Martin is prone to running his government further to the right than even Mulroney ever dared. Y'all aren't exactly the party of Trudeau anymore ...

and now you’re saying even Mulroney was left, so I sense some Layton-style back-peddling , there is no way the Martin’ gov’t is right of Mulroney’s Gov’t.

Anyhow, I think that's all for now, good sparring lads - we should do it over beers.

[d_rawk]

You're bowing out? Damn it, I'm itching to get at some of those statements! (ie. the SCOC decision about health-care was related to the Quebec charter). Ok, over beers or another day, it is, then.

But *this* one I can't let get away:

the Liberal party was the only party to whip any MP’s into supporting this legislation

It was a free-vote for Liberals. Decisions of Cabinet members are always in accordance with the party line. That's exactly why I focused on non-cabinet members -- ie those who were actually voting the way they wanted to vote. As you point out though, one Liberal cabinet member found the idea of SSM so offensive that he resigned his post just to vote against it.

On the other hand, for the NDP, it was NOT a free-vote. It was a whip vote, because it was seen as utter lunacy to regard something as a matter of fundamental rights and somehow still allow votes against it. One NDP MP voted against it (after saying she was going to abstain) and subsequently lost her nomination.

[Hux]

That's exactly why I focused on non-cabinet members -- ie those who were actually voting the way they wanted to vote.

But you're implying because Cabinet Minister's and PS's were whipped that they weren't voting how they would as backbenchers with free votes, and that's a distortion - most are on record of being supportive.

One NDP MP voted against it (after saying she was going to abstain) and subsequently lost her nomination.

True True the NDP did whip all Members, but I'll make a bet with you that because Desjarlais was "removed" and will now run as an independent, it will split the NDP vote and a Liberal will win the riding.

A principled move, but probably not a great political move. The Liberal Party has been the most successful as it is a big tent party that has room for many views.

[d_rawk]

I agree 100% that Desjarlais (if she does in the end choose to run) will split the NDP vote.

I disagree that there was any excuse for political moves in this regard, and don't think that anything but a principled move was excusable.

And yes, the Libs have room for many views. Heck, some of your cabinet ministers were elected as Conservatives A lot of what I like about the Liberal Party is that it is so exceedingly pragmatic. I don't mind that it has no soul. But that's also why I think it needs to be nudged occasionally into some tolerable positions.

[Hux]

If you don't agree with the principles of the Liberal Party - don't worry, we have some for you!

Give us pragmatism or give us death!

haha.

[d_rawk]

Haha! I'm no fan of the Calgary Sun, but this is cute as fuck!

Stevie, the latest doomed saviour to the perpetually-peeved in these parts, gave up leading the Opposition in all but name when he dithered ... yes, dithered ... huffing and puffing about the contemptible crookedness of the current crew but not making any attempt to blow the House down beyond emitting the usual ineffectual hot air.

Stevie is left giving props to Jack, the unofficial leader of the Opposition. Stevie is compelled to blather about how innovative our Jack has become and how things are looking up.

Stevie, like so many Tories, is all talk and no walk. Plenty of sabre-rattling but precious few swordfights.

Come to think of it, Stevie's stance is a perfect posture where scads of his supporters are most happy complaining full-time about the feds down at the cafe over a serving of sweet-and-sour chicken balls and a plate of beef fried rice.

That's when they're not ranting on the radio about how life would be so much better if everybody outside Alberta weren't so stupid.

To really end Stevie's day, birds of the air chirp about how Alberta health head honcho Iris Evans will be down in T.O. in December telling folks down east about her plans for private health insurance and private-pay health care. Talk about tidings of comfort and joy. Say sayonara, Stevie.