Plato's Politics

[SmoothedShredder]

Democracy passes into despotism.

Democracy... is a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder; and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequals alike.

Excess generally causes reaction, and produces a change in the opposite direction, whether it be in the seasons, or in individuals, or in governments.

For the introduction of a new kind of music must be shunned as imperiling the whole state; since styles of music are never disturbed without affecting the most important political institutions.

Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.

He was a wise man who invented beer.

Edited February 11, 2006 by Guest
First Politics post bitches!

[Biggest Fan]

With regards to 'beer', I once heard that it was discovered in the years in mans history when he was still somewhat nomadic.

Afterwards they realized it was time to get rid of the tents, you need to stay in one place to brew beer. And thus civilizations roots were in 'beer'. Good as theory as any.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Beer... is there anything it can't do? ("The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.")

Plato is hopelessly problematic, though. There was an interesting piece in the Citizen last Sunday about the ways in which his comments in the Republic have been used to underwrite both democratic and fascistic forms of government.

He seems to have been completely lacking in an appreciation of the mythic imagination (unless I'm overlooking any critique of the fundamentalists of his day - which I suppose, now, thinking about it, may have been the case). It's his stodgy conservatism around music that irks me the most, though. Jeez, buddy, lighten up. He reminds me of Adorno and his contempt for jazz as nothing more than a medium for mindless mechanical repetition. Take the pickle out, already.

[Thorgnor]

Beer was not invented by Plato, unless he was around in Africa thousands of years before his own birth to do so. The Egyptians included beer as part of state sponsored rations. Eurocentrism at it's best.

[d_rawk]

Yeah, wasn't bread and beer said to be what was fed to the labourers/slaves building the pyramids?

Seems to me that beer pretty much invents itself for every culture, what with the inevitable mixing of grain, water, and the wild yeasts and random bacteria circulating in the air.

[edit:] come to think of it, if you've got bread, you certainly can't help but trip over beer. Not that beer doesn't predate bread, but that if you've got bread ... it's inevitable.

Was having a conversation the other day about the fact that George Washington used to brew 200 gallons a MONTH (!) of beer for his household. And Ben Franklin, at least in some phases of his life, drank beer with breakfast lunch and dinner. Oh, and which founding father was it that drank a quart of hard cider every day as a way to start the morning? (I'm thinking it was Thomas Jefferson...). Just to keep a bit of politics in the discussion

Edited February 12, 2006 by Guest

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Yeah, near as I know, it was the Egyptians that came up with beer (though apparently it was a very different sort of thing from what we know today).

fwiw, Stella beer, Egypt's national brand, is pretty good drinkin'.

[Edit to add:] - and speaking of boozy leaders, let's not forget our own Sir John A., either .

Edited February 12, 2006 by Guest

[Thorgnor]

There were no slaves involved in the construction of the great pyramids, only voluntary work gangs. Religion was the main motivation aside from the pride of being the best gang.

The beer was supposedly like porridge. Some theorists believe that Noah would have brought beer instead of water because it would have remained safe to drink and would have had a lower alcohol content than wine.

Edited February 12, 2006 by Guest

[Birdy]

and speaking of boozy leaders, let's not forget our own Sir John A., either .

rowing down the river, bottle in hand.

i for one admire the man.

[d_rawk]

fwiw, Stella beer, Egypt's national brand, is pretty good drinkin'.

Hell ya!

For sure the beer was different. They probably hadn't 'domesticated' the yeasts to the extent that we have, and they were probably making it out of that bread. Washington's small beer was different too -- made primarily from molasses.

Take a large Sifter full of Bran

Hops to your Taste -- Boil these

3 hours. Then strain out 30 Gall.

into a Cooler put in 3 Gallons

Molasses while the Beer is

scalding hot or rather drain the

molasses into the Cooler. Strain

the Beer on it while boiling hot

let this stand til it is little more

than Blood warm. Then put in

a quart of Yeast if the weather is

very cold cover it over with a Blanket.

Let it work in the Cooler 24 hours

then put it into the Cask. leave

the Bung open til it is almost done

working -- Bottle it that day Week

it was Brewed.

Thorgnor -- how definitive is that, about the no slaves thing? I had thought it generally accepted about the Israelites as slaves and the struggle for emancipation thing. Admittedly, it isn't something that I've ever really been interested enough to look into ... but now I'm curious.

Is this the type of thing where there is a general consensus, or the type of thing where there are (at least) two accepted but competing theories and a constant war over which is closer to being correct?

[d_rawk]

Also, I don't doubt that the pyramiads were a religious project, but why the fuck were Jews so interested in an Egyptian religious project that they would break their backs for it?

[Thorgnor]

The Jews may have been involved in building some pyramids but as for the great pyramids, not so much as they say. Yes, the Egptians did have slaves but any reports of them being involved in pyramid building that I know of come to us through eroneous histories recorded by Herodotus and discredited by archeaological evidence in the 90's. Recent "erosion" dating techniques actually place their construction long before the popularly accepted dates to at least 5000BC.

[d_rawk]

Interesting. Thanks. I'll have to do some reading about that (if you have any sources to suggest, please do ... either here or via PM)

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Fwiw, the Great Pyramids would pre-date whatever Hebrew presence in Egypt there may have been by at least 1000 years. Pyramids were really pretty much out of fashion by the time the Jews emerge from the historical mist.

But I've been skeptical about just how backbreaking the pyramid project was ever since I came across an article in Canadian Geographic by someone who suggested that the limestone blocks were really a clever synthetic concrete (i.e., make wooden frames, pour concrete, dry, move on). He claimed to have arrived at this after having found a hair inside one of the blocks. I don't know how well authenticated that claim was, but people probably don't want to know, for fear of blowing the whole "mystery of the pyramids" thing.

This, of course, has nothing do whatsoever with what an enduringly good thing beer is.

[d_rawk]

This, of course, has nothing do whatsoever with what an enduringly good thing beer is.

Heh.

Well, shit, I've got tons of work to do re: pyramids That's interesting too about the limestone blocks. I've heard all sorts of wild explanations (you know, like the Art Bell guests talking about anti-gravitational beam ray guns or something being used to lift the blocks [not to piss off the anti-gravitational beam ray gun contingent]). It's really never been anything I've been too interested in, but it is now ... especially regarding timelines and the Hebrew/Egyptian mixing thing. I've got a vague sense that I got a dose of some this in those books about the Knights of Templar/Freemasonry and such when I was a young'un (what were those called? There was a pair of them that wrote them, I think).

But yes, beer is good, and my ratio of beer to sleep at the moment is an inverse one.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

[not to piss off the anti-gravitational beam ray gun contingent].

You have to really watch out for those guys, they'll fuck you up, and you won't even know where it came from .

My favourite bit on pyramid/Freemasonry mania has to be in Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum - there's a great passage where one of the characters presents what might be an utterly convincing string of mathematical associations linking the dimensions of the newspaper kiosk out his office window to the distance to the moon and a whole pile of other arcane, pseudo-meaningful relationships.

Meanwhile, "can you spot the Mason?"

[SmoothedShredder]

Beer was not invented by Plato, unless he was around in Africa thousands of years before his own birth to do so. The Egyptians included beer as part of state sponsored rations. Eurocentrism at it's best.

I think he was just giving thanks to the individual that invented beer in the first places, suggesting they were wise.

[d_rawk]

Ah! That makes more sense.

[Thorgnor]

That's not what you said.

[d_rawk]

I don't mean that what Plato said makes sense (or at least, I don't mean that I think it correct), but rather that understanding that Smoothedshredder was quoting Plato - not himself suggesting that Plato invented beer - makes his comment make sense in context.

Y'know.

[Thorgnor]

Sorry, I just quick responded, not neccesarily to you... more to the guy who said Plato made beer.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Apparently Martin Luther was a great drinker of beer. And he loved fart jokes, they say.

And champagne, fwiw, was invented by monks.

I think I would have found an easy vocation in that period between the late Middle Ages and early modernity.

[SmoothedShredder]

Sorry, I just quick responded, not neccesarily to you... more to the guy who said Plato made beer.

That guys an idiot.

[Thorgnor]