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Surprise suprise Harper and Bush "share ideology": US State Dept official

Hux

By Hux
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Birdy Newbie

Birdy

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Posted

Chretien and Clinton worked well together and I liked him. But it seems that he kind of gave up on diplomacy when Bush was elected, letting 'moron' comments slip by from his staff pretty much unscathed *Dhaliwal, Parrish, Ducros*, not really caring that Canada was pretty much excluded from the world response to 9-11, kind of even insinuating that the Americans might have deserved 9-11 because of the imperialistic ways. Bush was postponing trips to Ottawa and Chretien really could have cared less. It was enough for the world over to take note of Canada's anti-American attitude, and enough too for Paul Martin to come in aftermath styles and try to reconcile the fragile relationship... pledging Canada's assistance with nation-building in Iraq, etc.

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Birdy Newbie

Birdy

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chretien was a diplomatic moron. so were half of his administrative staff. if you think diplomatic morons will gain us more 'respect'' date=' than you and i share a VASTLY different idea of what 'respect' is.[/quote']

Or perhaps you share VASTLY different ideas about who the “moron†is...

I really don’t see how this sentence proves your point in ANY WAY.

generally it helps if you give me a chance to respond.

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The Chameleon Newbie

The Chameleon

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Chretien and Clinton worked well together and I liked him. But it seems that he kind of gave up on diplomacy when Bush was elected, letting 'moron' comments slip by from his staff pretty much unscathed *Dhaliwal, Parrish, Ducros*, not really caring that Canada was pretty much excluded from the world response to 9-11, kind of even insinuating that the Americans might have deserved 9-11 because of the imperialistic ways. Bush was postponing trips to Ottawa and Chretien really could have cared less. It was enough for the world over to take note of Canada's anti-American attitude, and enough too for Paul Martin to come in aftermath styles and try to reconcile the fragile relationship... pledging Canada's assistance with nation-building in Iraq, etc.

Buy doing what you have outlined above Chretien really for the first time in a long time earned my respect. He wasn't afraid to call Bush a moron (which he totally is and a dangerous one at that). He also wasn't ready to bend over for them when he canceled trips to Canada. He also made mention of what is very true. American imperialist foreign policy brought on the 9-11 attacks and they deserved it.

I remember thinking "what balls". Way to go! No one deserved to die but the Americas did that one to themselves and everyone knew it. Chretien was right (in my view) for speaking his mind. That is what being a man is all about. (or woman if the case was)

Sometimes you can't hold your tongue when things are untenable and egregious, as with the current US administration. Sometimes unpopular speech is the right thing to do, no matter the cost...

..and really what was the fall out from that?

Nothing.

That's my point. It's all a fear game the American gov't plays to keep us in line. What we have found out, from this, is that we can stray from the US party line to a degree and still maintain trade relations..

Now if we only had a PM with vision who understood this....

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Birdy Newbie

Birdy

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Innocent people died in 9-11 Chameleon, NOT american imperialist policy. Please don't say they 'deserved it'. NOONE deserves what happened that day.

You insult the US and complain about their bullying and then in the next breath commend Canada when she pulls the same name-calling tactics! I don't get it. You may look up to Chretien and a few of his staff for their anti-American schoolkid ridiculous behaviour, but i don't. What do you think can be achieved by name calling? Is it commendable that Chretien could do nothing but say 'you're a moron'? Wouldn't he have been a better leader if he was able to effectively communicate Canada's stance on American foreign policy, rather than fumble like an idiot and do ....... NOTHING? I think so. I really don't understand why people feel like he was such a great leader. A great leader wouldn't have left his party reeling in his aftermath, mopping up his bloody mess.

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The Chameleon Newbie

The Chameleon

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Innocent people died in 9-11 Chameleon, NOT american imperialist policy. Please don't say they 'deserved it'. NOONE deserves what happened that day.

You insult the US and complain about their bullying and then in the next breath commend Canada when she pulls the same name-calling tactics! I don't get it. You may look up to Chretien and a few of his staff for their anti-American schoolkid ridiculous behaviour, but i don't. What do you think can be achieved by name calling? Is it commendable that Chretien could do nothing but say 'you're a moron'? Wouldn't he have been a better leader if he was able to effectively communicate Canada's stance on American foreign policy, rather than fumble like an idiot and do ....... NOTHING? I think so. I really don't understand why people feel like he was such a great leader. A great leader wouldn't have left his party reeling in his aftermath, mopping up his bloody mess.

Agreed. And every day 1,000nds of innocent people die at the hands of the American foreign policy. As I said no innocent person deserves to die, but as a nation the did deserve it and it was a long time in coming. When you have imperalistic foriegn policy and you wrong people around the world you must pay the price. And they did.

Also, what the Americans are doing to us and other poorer nations (in a much worse way) is not even remotely the same as Jean Chretien being overheard "off mic" calling Bush and "idiot". Quite frankly I don't care what Washington calls us at all. The can call us backward hockey lovin' beaver fuckers for all I care, as long as they stay out of our politics. What I do care about is actions. And they regularly flex their muscle and extort us in to bowing to their policies all the time (see Afghanistan, mandatory minimum sentencing & Kyoto). There is no comparison, to one ill time remark and a never ending culture of coersion. Pleeeeassse.

I am not saying Chretien was a 'great" leader. Far from it. I thought he was adequate, but compared to Harper of Martin he looks amazing. All I am saying is that he was along with Tredeau was one of the few leaders in this country that wasn't afraid to speak his mind.

Beside George Bush speaks the mind he doesn't have all the time. So every once and a while it's nice to see us call a spade a spade. I like Hugo Chavez for the same reason.

P.S. If you want to talk about a bloody mess then certainly Stephen Harper has the most blood on his hands. Not since WWII has any sitting PM had so many Canadian casualties of war to answer for. the mop of from that will be a task that will take years to clean up.

P.S.

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SmoothedShredder Newbie

SmoothedShredder

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P.S. If you want to talk about a bloody mess then certainly Stephen Harper has the most blood on his hands. Not since WWII has any sitting PM had so many Canadian casualties of war to answer for. the mop of from that will be a task that will take years to clean up.

I'm sorry, I don't want to trivalize this, but Far more Canadians died in Korea than have so far in Afghanistan...

If you're so wary of the brand of fear that the Americans propogate, then why do you act so fearful/hateful of Harper... you make him sound like Stalin, and make yourself sound like you don't want to take your own advice.

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SmoothedShredder Newbie

SmoothedShredder

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someone once compared Canada living next to the USA to the Flanders living next door to the Simpsons.

So who is who?

Yeah, and to put it in relative terms, Canada's population compared to the US is equivilant to the ratio of Greenland/Iceland to Canada... and how often do we talk about our 'other' neighbours...

Therefore the US is clearly Important to us, as it's easily what we talk about the most in here other than 'ourselves'... I can't even recall someone posting about Denmarkian politics ever.

Also, it's clear, many are afraid what happens if/when that 'giant elephant in the room' rolls over.... I wouldn't be afraid. We are Canadian... we are better than that I hope.

Though, I'll admit, I'm afraid crossing the border. I don't want so weed residue in my car to lock me up or to limit my freedom... still you think we'll ever convince them to change their stance on Weed if we are constantly insulting them?

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The Chameleon Newbie

The Chameleon

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P.S. If you want to talk about a bloody mess then certainly Stephen Harper has the most blood on his hands. Not since WWII has any sitting PM had so many Canadian casualties of war to answer for. the mop of from that will be a task that will take years to clean up.

I'm sorry' date=' I don't want to trivialize this, but Far more Canadians died in Korea than have so far in Afghanistan...

If you're so wary of the brand of fear that the Americans propogate, then why do you act so fearful/hateful of Harper... you make him sound like Stalin, and make yourself sound like you don't want to take your own advice.[/quote']

You are correct far more did die in Korea. My error. So then during Harper's watch the most Canadian's have died since Korea.

The brand of fear I am talking about is the kind that comes from the top level power structure (i.e The White House) and influences our government.

So I do not see how that correlates to my own dislike of Harper, at all. Furthermore I was never offering advice, simply a view that Canadians' are(on a political) level often manipulated by fear of trade consequences by the American administration. If I had some political sway perhaps the link would be cogent, but in this case I don't see it.

My comment of Harper with relation to war deaths was in response to Birdy's assertion that Chretien left a bloody mess. Which is laughable considering the real casualties happening now.

And yes I will openly say that I biased against Harper. I feel he is the worst thing to happen to this country in a long time. So my comments are in no way objective, nor did I ever claim them to be.

(P.S. I also respect the fact that others have different opinions than mine and I find the amicable yet opposite discourse in this forum enlightening and healthy.)

I thank all for their imput past and present.

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Birdy Newbie

Birdy

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My comment of Harper with relation to war deaths was in response to Birdy's assertion that Chretien left a bloody mess. Which is laughable considering the real casualties happening now.

And yes I will openly say that I biased against Harper. I feel he is the worst thing to happen to this country in a long time. So my comments are in no way objective, nor did I ever claim them to be.

chameleon, do you know who originally sent our troops overseas?

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Birdy Newbie

Birdy

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"kind of even insinuating that the Americans might have deserved 9-11 because of the imperialistic ways."

the individual who died did not deserve it.

the country....FUCKING RIGHT THEY DESERVED IT!

and when it happens AGAIN, they'll DESERVE IT AGAIN!!!!

(but whoever dies doesn't.)

Interesting. You berate the US for bombing others, and clap and approve when others bomb them.

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ollie Newbie

ollie

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One more thing...

the individual who died did not deserve it.

the country....FUCKING RIGHT THEY DESERVED IT!

and when it happens AGAIN, they'll DESERVE IT AGAIN!!!!

(but whoever dies doesn't.)

So the people who died in the attack didn't deserve to die but the country deserved to be attacked so it's all good?

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