Surprise suprise Harper and Bush "share ideology": US State Dept official

[Hux]

PM, Bush have similar ideologies, U.S. State official says

ALAN FREEMAN

From Friday's Globe and Mail

WASHINGTON — A top U.S. State Department official yesterday praised the "important ideological affinity" between President George W. Bush and Prime Minister Stephen Harper, indicating that this sharing of minds is giving a boost to Canada-U.S. relations.

Tom Shannon, U.S. assistant secretary of state for the Western Hemisphere, told reporters yesterday that relations have been eased by the fact that Mr. Harper's Conservative Party doesn't have the same ideological inclinations as some Liberals did when it comes to relations with Washington.

"I'm not sure that changing the tone of the relationship is the right way to put it because I don't want to necessarily imply that the tone was bad," Mr. Shannon said in response to a question about the impact of Mr. Harper's election earlier this year.

"Prime Minister Harper, I think, in his own political party has a party which is committed to a certain vision of the relationship that has always not characterized how certain parts of the Liberal Party have seen the relationship," Mr. Shannon continued.

Mr. Shannon, who was answering questions from Latin American and Canadian journalists at a year-end informal news conference, was clearly anxious to be as diplomatic as possible in characterizing relations with Canada.

"I've been working on Canadian issues for quite some time and we've had some really important successes beginning with prime minister [Jean] Chrétien, continuing with prime minister [Paul] Martin and now with Prime Minister Harper."

He referred specifically to the 2001 Americas Summit in Quebec City, post-Sept. 11 border co-operation, military co-operation in Afghanistan and development of the Security and Prosperity Partnership involving Canada, Mexico and the United States.

That partnership, which was launched at a three-way summit in Waco, Tex., in 2004, is an effort to go beyond the strictly trade-related agenda of the North American free-trade agreement. After meeting in Cancun, Mexico, last March, the leaders are due to meet again in Canada next June, according to Mr. Shannon.

"We view Canada's role in the hemisphere as incredibly important, not only because it shares our democratic values and our approach on human rights and free markets and economic development, but also because it does have a different kind of relationship with some countries in the region."

[phishtaper]

"We view Canada's role in the hemisphere as incredibly important ... "

read: we can rape their resources. :crazy:

[Kanada Kev]

this sharing of minds is giving a boost to Canada-U.S. relations.

WHA? Dubya has some to spare? Doesn't sound like a fair deal at all.

"We view Canada's role in the hemisphere as incredibly important ... because it does have a different kind of relationship with some countries in the region."

Yeah, exactly. USE our good standing with other countries to get your agenda through. Reminds me of school kids ... "Hey, go tell so and so that I like her because I'm too afraid to do it myself"

Pfftt.

Come on Harper, you can't enjoy having Bush's hand that far up your ass can you? Maybe you like being a puppet.

Later . . .

Kanada Kev =8)

[The Chameleon]

I think saying Bush & Harper have minds is a little zealous.

That's giving them waaaaaay to much credit.

[Birdy]

"We view Canada's role in the hemisphere as incredibly important ... "

read: we can rape their resources. :crazy:

like we haven't benefitted off anything from them!

[The Chameleon]

"We view Canada's role in the hemisphere as incredibly important ... "

read: we can rape their resources. :crazy:

like we haven't benefitted off anything from them!

Regardless whatever we have gained from the Americans they have repaid us in bullying influence in our politics and laws behind the scenes.

Our resources are another matter entirely. They need to be protected from American interests at all costs.....

Heads up "fresh water is the new oil" And we are sitting on most of it.

[M.O.B.E]

"We view Canada's role in the hemisphere as incredibly important ... "

read: we can rape their resources. :crazy:

like we haven't benefitted off anything from them!

Regardless whatever we have gained from the Americans they have repaid us in bullying influence in our politics and laws behind the scenes.

Our resources are another matter entirely. They need to be protected from American interests at all costs.....

[color:red]Heads up "fresh water is the new oil" And we are sitting on most of it.

No the nation of Quebec is holding most of it. Why do you think they want out?

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

"We view Canada's role in the hemisphere as incredibly important ... "

read: we can rape their resources. :crazy:

like we haven't benefitted off anything from them!

Stockholm Syndrome

[Birdy]

cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

i think we have stood to benefit a thing or two from the americans in say the last 100 years.

it's sad though.. how quickly we're able to push that all to the side.

[The Chameleon]

cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

i think we have stood to benefit a thing or two from the Americans in say the last 100 years.

it's sad though.. how quickly we're able to push that all to the side.

When you have a violent, abusive, parasitic neighbor that bullies you into following their demented "world domination" foreign policy and blackmails you into not passing laws they disagree with, which all, hurts the way the world views you, then I say we can't push that/them away far enough....

Please name 5 crucial things the Americans have done exclusively for Canada in the last 100yrs that are significant?

[Birdy]

You don't think Canada has benefitted from such things as NAFTA or NATO?

What about the good old 'branch plant' economy?

Or the cajillions of dollars of trade that trucks over the Ambassador bridge between Windsor and Detroit, DAILY?

Do you like such things as the NHL? the MLBA? the NBA?

Ever taken a good solid look at the labels on your clothes?? Or at the car you drive? Or at the food in your fridge? Or at the computer you are typing on? Or at the tv that you watch?

I think before anyone commits to pushing anyone away 'fast enough' they should look a little deeper at just how engrained our societies are. there's much, MUCH more going on aside from foreign policy.

[The Chameleon]

You don't think Canada has benefitted from such things as NAFTA or NATO?

What about the good old 'branch plant' economy?

Or the cajillions of dollars of trade that trucks over the Ambassador bridge between Windsor and Detroit, DAILY?

Do you like such things as the NHL? the MLBA? the NBA?

Ever taken a good solid look at the labels on your clothes?? Or at the car you drive? Or at the food in your fridge? Or at the computer you are typing on? Or at the tv that you watch?

I think before anyone commits to pushing anyone away 'fast enough' they should look a little deeper at just how engrained our societies are. there's much, MUCH more going on aside from foreign policy.

Sadly your examples do not hold much water for me.

American culture and pro sports are everywhere world wide. The push it so they can profit form international merchandising and investment.

Most of the labels on my clothes are made in Asian countries, very little is made in the USA anymore, even if it is by an American company.

I do not drive a car, due to environmental reasons. Furthermore most of the cars that are any good these days are Japanese or German. SO no go on that.

My computer is Canadian made with Chinese/Japanese/asian guts....

Their TV and culture is exported everywhere not just Canada. (I will agree they gave us Magnum P.I., so score 1 for the US on that)

Branch plants and trucks coming over the Ambassador are part of the problem. See the environment and the exporting and closing of said branch plants which crush the small "one horse" towns they have created. Regardless of what Americans may say trade between our countries will always happen. They need us as much as we need them, believe it or not.

Look. I am not saying America does not have redeeming qualities. They do. They have given the world certain things that we all enjoy.

What I am saying is that those things are far outweighed by the violence, death and psychotic right wing agenda they try to force down the world's throat.

I truly believe the sooner we are willing to distance ourselves and stop being their lapdog as we are right now with Harper. The more respected and better off Canada will be. I am not saying let's "cut the cord". I am saying we need to revert to a Trudeau type mentality of standing up for ourselves and doing what is right for Canada. We must stop worrying that decisions we make for our sovereign nation, may not be "approved" by the US, and hence we do not make them.

All I'm saying is that I guarantee you the US lawmakers, never consider what Canada will think or do, when they make policy. We shouldn't either.

Edited December 20, 2006 by Guest

[Birdy]

we're far, FAR, FAR more dependant on the US than they are on us.

should the US really consider what Canada thinks or does? really? in the grand scheme of world powers, what's Canada on the map, as compared to the super power house of the US? even comparing us to them seems kind of ridiculous to me.

while i admit saying a big fuck you and giving the middle finger sounds nice and fun, but realistically, it's fucking idiotic and would serve nothing better than kicking ourselves in the teeth.

we're wholly dependant on the US, whether our pride let's ourselves admit it or not.

it will be great to gain the respect of the world... but when more than half of our country is unemployed, families unable to feed their children, trade all but depleted, what will that respect really even mean?

we need to think responsibly.

[The Chameleon]

we're far, FAR, FAR more dependant on the US than they are on us.

should the US really consider what Canada thinks or does? really? in the grand scheme of world powers, what's Canada on the map, as compared to the super power house of the US? even comparing us to them seems kind of ridiculous to me.

while i admit saying a big fuck you and giving the middle finger sounds nice and fun, but realistically, it's fucking idiotic and would serve nothing better than kicking ourselves in the teeth.

we're wholly dependant on the US, whether our pride let's ourselves admit it or not.

it will be great to gain the respect of the world... but when more than half of our country is unemployed, families unable to feed their children, trade all but depleted, what will that respect really even mean?

we need to think responsibly.

Exactly the "bend-over and take it" mentality you propose is in the long run not responsible and not for the good of the country.

I agree we are dependent on them for many things, and that needs to change. We need to be willing to roll the dice a little bit and assert ourselves. We need to be willing to take a hit once and a while, for long term gains.

Simply because we assert ourselves does not mean we won't be doing business with them. It merely means we will do it on terms that respect the Canadian identity. The US is not going to pull the plug because we don't fall in line with each and every foreign policy decision they make.

This is the great myth they have sold us for years. It is a myth you have taken to heart.

When Chretien or Trudeau were in power they had more independence form Washington and I felt made decisions that distanced us from the Americans, and did the country collapse? NO. Was there saber rattling from the US. YES. Did anything come of it,that was substantial....no.

We need to end the Americans say jump and Canadians say "how high" relationship.

P.S. Simply because the US is a superpower does not mean they have the right to negate the sovereignty of other nation be it literally or via influence as in Canada.

They are finding this out in Iraq (aka Vietnam prt2) as we speak.

Edited December 20, 2006 by Guest

[timouse]

When you have a violent, abusive, parasitic neighbor that bullies you into following their demented "world domination" foreign policy and blackmails you into not passing laws they disagree with, which all, hurts the way the world views you, then I say we can't push that/them away far enough....

someone once compared Canada living next to the USA to the Flanders living next door to the Simpsons.

[Birdy]

I think you need to remember the Canadian people elected Harper and the conservatives, knowing full well what their stance was on the Can-Am relationship. I personally felt kind of horrified with how we treated the Americans during the days of Chretien, and don't get me started on Trudeau.

I never once proposed any sort of 'bend over and take it' mentality, rather an understanding of how heavily our North American society is entwined, thanks to such things as NAFTA and NATO.

I think with what we have, we do roll the dice and assert ourselves, but i think it's also important to realize that we are by no means on an equal playing field with the US and i think the kind of assertation that you want to make will make us look rather foolish and maybe makes us look too big for our britches.

I don't think the US is going to pull the plug on us at all. But I do think they have the power to make things a tad bit more uncomfortable for Canadian exporters should they want to, exactly what they did with softwood lumber and cattle. Should lumberers and farmers be the ones to pay because Ottawa chooses to adopt an anti-American stance? Hell no. It's much easier for us all to work with them than against them, and I respect Harper for wanting to do this. Harper has stood his ground against Bush, but unlike Chretien, did it in a way that leaves our good relationship still intact. It's easy for the French to hate on the US because they're so far removed from it all, it's not so easy for us. That should be understood.

Yes, the US has made some god-awful decisions when it comes to foreign policy and thankfully Canada isn't standing beside them, say as much as Tony Blair and the British. I don't agree with their policies, but i do in a way sympathize with them. World politics and global economies and trade relationships and all of that is some serious business.. the Americans were trying to do as they saw right, and they failed. The world knows this and Canada knows this. Harper isn't nor won't enlist our troops to stand beside the Americans in Iraq, so I really don't understand the severity of some of the comments in this thread. This to me reads much more like a Liberal campaign ad than it does actual news.

[timouse]

I think you need to remember the Canadian people elected Harper and the conservatives, knowing full well what their stance was on the Can-Am relationship.

agreed, but remember too that they are a minority government in an age of voter apathy. i think a lot of canadians, myself included, reel a liitle bit each time steve gets on board with the US.

[phishtaper]

When you have a violent' date=' abusive, parasitic neighbor that bullies you into following their demented "world domination" foreign policy and blackmails you into not passing laws they disagree with, which all, hurts the way the world views you, then I say we can't push that/them away far enough....[/quote']

someone once compared Canada living next to the USA to the Flanders living next door to the Simpsons.

Trudeau said it was like a mouse sleeping next to an elephant

[The Chameleon]

Personally, I love the way Tredeau and Chretien played the Americans and I want more of that.

And yes the "roll of the dice" I talk of would make the "softwood lumber" thing a possible consequence of that. And yes sometimes average Canadians woudl have to pay for the decisions Ottawa makes for the greater good.

I have no problem with paying a price in trade for a more respected and independent nation. I realize my views are not necessarily shared.

My view is that if we are not willing to "take the hit" in trade, then things will never improve.

We need a spine desperately in this country and Harper certainly does not have one. He is the lap dog of the US presidency. This is obvious.

P.S. Harper only won the election, by default.

[Birdy]

what's 'by default' mean? i hope you'll find that there's a WHOLE country outside of Toronto.

what's your idea of 'improving'? in this thread you're bashing american foreign policy and talking about taking a hit in trade to improve... american foreign policy?

chretien was a diplomatic moron. so were half of his administrative staff. if you think diplomatic morons will gain us more 'respect', than you and i share a VASTLY different idea of what 'respect' is.

[The Chameleon]

what's 'by default' mean? i hope you'll find that there's a WHOLE country outside of Toronto.

what's your idea of 'improving'? in this thread you're bashing american foreign policy and talking about taking a hit in trade to improve... american foreign policy?

chretien was a diplomatic moron. so were half of his administrative staff. if you think diplomatic morons will gain us more 'respect', than you and i share a VASTLY different idea of what 'respect' is.

Bingo you do share a vastly different view of what "respect" is than I. And I love opposite friendly discourse.

and in terms of improving. I am not talking about taking a hit to improve American foreign policy, towards us. I am talking about taking a hit to improve the confidence of nation and the world image of Canada. So we are not seen as the lap dog to the US. Also to send a message to the US that we will not be bullied/blackmailed on every little social issue the find "not in line" with their "right wing Jesus pushing mentality". It would show that our socio-economic sovereignty and beliefs matter more that the bottom line, every once and a while.

And by default, I mean Harper only won because there was no one else to vote for (who actually had a shot at winning), and no one could bear to vote for the Liberals after their sponsorship debacle. Point is if Harper ran in an election not fraught with scandal he would have lost (as it is he barely squeaked by).

Whatever this will all be history soon as Harper and his pro USA/conservative agenda is going to die ala Joe Clark...

Looking forward to that Non-Confidence vote....

Edited December 20, 2006 by Guest

[phishtaper]

Looking forward to that Non-Confidence vote....

oh gawd, no

[SmoothedShredder]

Word on the Street, Al Gore invented the Internet. ... they may not of perfected the assembly line, but they invented it. Just becasue other nations (See Japan/China/Tiwan/Mexico) have become more efficent at creating these items of mass consumption, one cannot turn a blind eye to the Reaseach and Development, Inventiveness, and Resiliance (fuelled by huge stock piles of resources) America has accomplished. Most of this was set in motion by the foundation laid by the founding forefathers (Voltaires Bastards), and has been such a sucessful system (created by Geniuses to be run by idiots), that it has effectively priced itself outside of what the Earth has to offer (3% of the Population consuming 20% of the resources... per capita, Canadians are worse)... Sure they are Empirical, but all Empries are destined to fall, "You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb to world to peace" and all that jazz.

Just becasue one might not like the people that GOVERN America, one cannot take away the history and the accomplishments which the American system (fuelled by at the time infinate resources) has achieved. And based on priciple it's a fantastic Idea (atleast to me)... too bad in practice those choosen to govern have not taken the effort to collectively understand what the constitution means (though the Supreme Court does get it right from time to time). It's only been fairly recently that the American economy 'tipped the scales' and we actaully felt the pressures of a finite world (the first real clue was the 1972 oil crisis, though I could accept the fundamental of any war conflict to be one of resource aquisition, still it was a revelation that America could be held hostage by a country on the exact opposite side of the globe just by tinkering with some commodities prices)... that combined with mass media, with all it's horrific technicolour violence, we could (as significant geographical democracy) see for the first time, the effect of the casual market forces on cracking the foundation of the American system (New Orleans/Poverty/Crime/Social Assitance/Baseball/Basketball), and global system. Sure there's been a great amount of denial ("You'll take my cheeseburger when you pry it out of my cold dead hands"), but eventually push will come to shove ([color:purple]maybe NASA will find another planet ripe with resources?!) it's actually really really bad there for the 'have-nots', and not getting any better for them... I believe in stark contrast, in terms of magnitude and geographical extent to what we have in Canada with our far more socialist system. You can just see how the Canadian dollar has risen against the US over the last year to see how the global market is 'rewarding us' from our distinguishment from the American Economy.

I think though the real key, is to maintain a dialogue, and the key to the dialoge is to preach sustainability, conservation, and global freedom and democracy... and not just the kind of meaningless interpretation that Bush uses to rally the troops. Do I think a Canadian brand of Conservative is equal to the American brand... absolutely not. I would consider the Democratic Party of the United States as right wing or more than the Conservative Party of Canada, simply for the fact that they play in 'different arena's' with different rules... we will always be more socialist in Canada with our Health Care, Pension Plans, Relative quality and accesibility to education, and immigration rights. We also don't have an empirical attitude... Canada is not looking to take over the world, we would rather give it back to Quebec or the Natives, or hand it over to new Immigrants and celebrate the diversity... and certainly don't do this with large mobile armies and defence budgets which dwarf the GDP of most other reigons of the world.

Still the global awarness is a realtively new phenomenon to the masses... eventually the United States will get the message (one way or the other)... and so will we. It will be alot less painful for those 'on the edge' if/when we are able to sit across the table and talk face to face, and not turn our backs on each other. If we don't do it, mother nature will, and I'm not going to be apathetic because of some superiority complex.

Anyways, sorry for the BLOG!

[The Chameleon]

You are right. Dialogue is the key, as is setting clear boundaries on what one will accept as a nation.

And I do not dislike the American people(it's not thier fault, except the right wing Jesus freaks!) nor their innovations. I simply despise their government and foreign policy.....

[Birdy]

You are right. Dialogue is the key...

That's where Chretien failed.