rubberdinghy Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Oh BTW...the plans call for a brand new south stand, and a renovated north.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booche Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Listen...why is everyone against new retail on Bank St.? A cinema? nah...but a stadium YAY! Just so its clear for the thousandth time. Its NOT a new stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberdinghy Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 NEW south stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AD Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Here is what I think. I also thought this last night when I originally posted it. Here are some of my thoughts. If I've got any facts wrong, please do correct them. Football / Stadium:I'm indifferent to a CFL franchise. Football-watchin' is fun, but it has failed here twice before. All this other development is just a foot in the door to secure city funding for the Renegades / Roughriders / whatever they'll be called. I think a stadium is important and needed (if not for CFL then for events similar to the Stones show, U20 World Cup, Francophonie Games, etc) , but I don't think we should pay to refurbish Frank Clair - it's a dump (as is the Civic Centre Arena). They should build a proper new stadium close to proper transit (which Ottawa doesn't have). Of course there is no money to do this. (Zero means 10%). I heard somewhere that it cost $60 million to build BMO Field in Toronto, yet the Lansdowne Live bid calls for $113 million to refurbish Frank Clair. What the hell? If someone is going to spend all kinds of money on this site, do it up right - rip the stadium down and build something beautiful and functional, and if you can do it for cheaper, great!Also, football didn't ever make money in Ottawa. Retail:If Lansdowne Live is going to be a tourist spot / regional draw (like all the literature touts), a supermarket and a movie theatre are not going to cut it. The Mayfair is across the canal, there are multiple screens at World Exchange, South Keys, and Rideau Centre, not to mention many more outside the core. There are already two supermarkets in the Glebe and Old Ottawa South, not to mention specialty stores such as the Meat Market, Kardish Foods, Wild Oat, Nicastro's, Brioche, Serious Cheese, Ottawa Farmer's Market etc... These stores and the Mayfair may survive, but it sure doesn't seem like a fair fight. If retail is so badly needed (like the supporters say) why isn't the retail coming here regardless of OSEG? Isn't that what free market capitalism is all about? The OSEG gets the 10 acres for retail rent-free for 30 years while receiving all the revenue from the site (that's the whole site). Money-stuff:Like already said, OSEG gets this land rent-free for 30 years plus all revenue, plus the city pays for the stadium upgrades and the parking garage (while giving all the proceeds to the OSEG). OSEG can walk away after 5 years and leave the city with the tab. After the 30 years, OSEG is still first in line for their portion of revenues. Plus they're not going to make much from property taxes on the site. Taxpayers should benefit first, not the developers.Aesthetics:From what I've seen in the artist renditions, it's an ugly site. We live in a national capital - the plans look nothing like a source of pride for the city / country / neighbourhood. Everything just needs to be better. The Aberdeen Pavilion could be an amazing market, but instead they want to partition it for restaurants and open space. Other capitals and major cities have landmark developments in sites similar to Lansdowne - an often quoted example is Granville Island in Vancouver. I have no idea if that's turned out to be good for the city, but the multiple times I've been there when visiting Vancouver I've had a good time and spent money.Parking and Residential:They want to build a $13 million parking garage (city pays, OSEG gets all revenue for 30 years). Nothing specific to not-like here. I just don't like it in general. Also I don't think residential dwellings should be on this site.City Council:What a bunch of jokers. They're voting today to see if they as a whole agree with the plan in principle. Yet there is still quite a bit unknown about this proposal that should be taken into account before any such vote. There is a heritage study to be done about proposed changes to the Aberdeen Pavilion, a traffic study, the issue of the market impact in on Glebe merchants hasn't been figured out (there were two reports, with wildly different conclusions).The Good Things:The Farmers' Market needs a permanent home, and if it looked nice, was indoor and was functional that would be great. Use the St. Lawrence Market, the Kitchener Farmer's Market or something similar as a starting point.A concert site would be nice, but it would be a 'if you build it they might come' gambit. I'd support that though, I like music.I think it would have made a great site for the new public library, but it's not accessible to much transit so screw that.At least people are talking about this.This is off the top of my head... If I think of more I'll post it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Live debate on Rogers 22 right now. I think Clive Doucet just started crying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AD Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Well Ollie, you ignored my fair criticism, responded to a turn of phrase about a coat of paint, then asked me to be more fair in my criticism. I thought I'd post some real issues foryou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booche Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Doucet must have recently watched the Seinfeld episode when George went to Susan crying in hopes of postponing their wedding and saw that it worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberdinghy Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 My thoughts...I've done "some" reading...and yes I read your views yesterday....$120 million to renovate North Side and build a brand new south side...It would cost a hell of a lot more than 60 mill to build a Stadium and an arena if they bulldozed the North side as well I'm sure....My understanding is the city will collect any revenues recieved from a hotel, office space built and used on the property.Real Canadian Superstore/Metro vs Specialty stores in Wellington West and Westboro....Herb and Spice, Thyme and Again, Swiss Pastries, Harvest Loaf, Bagelshop, Three Bakers, Natuzzi, Parma Ravioli all seem to be fine after Superstore was opened....Also, how often do you see an empty store front on Bank St. in the Glebe....From what I read they want to keep the fronting on Bank St. two storey store "boutique style" fronts. As for the Aberdeen Pav...Cafe's and such is a much better idea than the original Aquarium plan.As for the parking structure...I couldn't find anything stating that it would be paid for separately from the original 150 million dollar city investment...don't forget the builders are also dropping 150 mill and are required to keep the site in "like new" shape for 30 years...Sure they'll get revenue, but they'll also create tons of jobs...That's what I've got for now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Well Ollie, you ignored my fair criticism, responded to a turn of phrase about a coat of paint, then asked me to be more fair in my criticism. I thought I'd post some real issues foryou. I was just following your lead in re-posting the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AD Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Oh, I thought you wanted fair criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booche Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Ollie, you asked AD and I what we didnt like about Frank Claire stadium. Aside from the pretty sunsets, as previously stated, what do you like about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AD Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Feel free to look beyond the stadium to the rest of the development when answering as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Feel free to look beyond the stadium to the rest of the development when answering as well. This whole mess started when I asked you and Booche what you didn't like about the STADIUM. You both listed a bunch of items that any reasonable person would assume would be fixed as part of the renovations done to the STADIUM. I expressed that opinion to which you replied:"Ooooo wow, new coat of paint on a piece of sh!t stadium. "To which I accused you of making an unfair criticism.None of my comments so far today had anything to do with the rest of the development plan. Nor did it have anything to do with the relative merits of building a new stadium vs. renovation. I just asked you not to characterize the renovation to the STADIUM as mere window dressing.Then you re-posted your post from yesterday and I got snarky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AD Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Ollie what do you think of the lansdowne live proposal as a whole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AD Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Or the STADIUM, whatever works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hux Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Wow, you can cut the homo-erotic sexual tension in this thread with a knife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AD Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 One last point for now. Ollie - do you believe that that I think the city is going to spend $113 million on paint? No. I gave some largely cosmetic reasons but also pointed out that there must be substantial engineering, electrical, event-specific, plumbing, etc work to be done in addition to all the "little things.". I gave some fair criticism of the whole plan - if you want to know what I think of just the stadium, then read what I think of the stadium. I re-posted that long thing because Dinghy asked what people thought of retail and I addressed my thoughts on that. I also raised more points that are relevant to the project, ideally we can discuss if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booche Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Stop being reasonable AD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak By Night Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Some excellent debate in this thread. Good work boys.For me, Lansdowne is all about sports and concerts.As for the retail portion of the plan - I can't see myself doing very much shopping at Lansdowne.I'm not a huge shopper. I've got pretty much everything I need already.I prefer to do my grocery shopping close to home.The retail portion of the plan is likely required to carry the football team, which, on its own, would probably not make much money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberdinghy Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I was sorta being silly AD....but nobody likes my points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hey now Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 one thing i found interesting regarding the bank st. businesses who do not wish the retail development at lansdowne. thier primary landlord is minto.whoops i gotta play balloon catch with my son...i'm looking forward to adding to this later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberdinghy Posted November 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Minto backs the Bank St. BIA, which is technically the group against the project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AD Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Minto, who is most definitely FOR the project, is backing a group opposed to the project? Strange. I guess it depends what form the backing takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Evil_Mouse Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak By Night Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I heard that Minto made the largest financial contributions to the BIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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