Rebuilding Canada

[Birdy]

We have a strong diversified economy, a highly skilled and educated public that is comitted to a strong social system and abundant revenue especially since we became the US's #1 supplier of oil. There's absolultely no reason that Canada can't have a strong, comprehensive public health and services system.

we have a strong diversified economy that spins everytime the US moves from right to left, our highly skilled and educated public moves down the US in order to get paid WELL for a job that they deserve to get paid WELL to do. Are we really that comitted to a strong, social system? i mean, we did JUST elect a CONSERVATIVE government and one of the rightest of rights to lead that conservative government. A strong, comprehensive public health system? why can't we? honestly i want to know? it sure as hell isn't a strong, comprehensive public health system now and that by all means is not the fault of a 'conservative' government.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Sorry - I've got this terrible indexical association between the words "investment", "Germany", and "Prescott Bush" (along with IBM, IG Farben, and so on and so on).

These historical comparisons, though, are impossible (though instructive). The Weimar constitution was in large measure drafted up by (my favourite sociologist) Max Weber, who was decidedly opposed to most things Marxist, and look where that ended up. Too many parties! Too much democracy! (I guess we're not too far removed from those kinds of possibilities - look at the recent French election where the vote was split between so many parties that the ultra-right National Front under LePen came in 2nd, to everybody's horror).

That too is all a bit abstract, of course. There was also the issue of spiralling economic chaos worldwide - recession, the Depression, and polarising politics between fascism and communism which each presented themselves as the only alternatives (leaving moderates out in the cold), and then it was just race to the bottom time.

I'm still stuck on the problem that if somebody doesn't have enough money in their pocket, they're plum outta luck. I mean, should we really be coordinating ourselves as a society towards a Spencer-esque, social Darwinist, thinning-of-the-herd kind of socio-political arrangement?

[Edit to add: Geez, I have to learn to type faster or something.]

Edited January 26, 2006 by Guest
Slow off the mark

[ollie]

Hey Birdy, I just don't see us being in the same boat as post-WWI Germany. Didn't our economy under Paul Martin do better than that? Learn from history, yes... I just think the comparison is a stretch.

As I've said in the past, my judgement of the Canadian health care system is based on personal experience... and I've had to use the system more than my age would suggest. I think it's excellent. And if I had a four year wait for surgery you can bet I'd be calling the office every day looking for a cancellation.

[ollie]

i mean, we did JUST elect a CONSERVATIVE government and one of the rightest of rights to lead that conservative government.

No, *we* didn't. 36.25% of Canadians did.

[Blane]

we have a strong diversified economy that spins everytime the US moves from right to left,

Sorry, but I don't think we'll ever move far from that despite anything the cons propose. Such is teh nature of living beside the world's biggest trader I'm afraid.

our highly skilled and educated public moves down the US in order to get paid WELL for a job that they deserve to get paid WELL to do.

The "brain drain" was proven to be grossly exagerrated by right wing pundits to buttress the kind of arguments you're making YEARS ago. I can provide sources if you like.

Are we really that comitted to a strong, social system? i mean, we did JUST elect a CONSERVATIVE government and one of the rightest of rights to lead that conservative government.

Yes we are. The Harper vote was a protest vote to punish the ruling party. We also just voted Tommy Douglas a greatest canadian ever. Support for a strong public health care has consistently been high (even if it means paying a high tax rate).

A strong, comprehensive public health system? why can't we? honestly i want to know? it sure as hell isn't a strong, comprehensive public health system now and that by all means is not the fault of a 'conservative' government.

I sure that we can. It is a tough nut especially given the gulf that has existed between provincial and federal politics in the past years, but if ministers were able to be unified on the thing, I think we could revamp health care. I think they're already taking good steps to do so (establishing maximum wait times, etc.)

[Freak By Night]

I'm glad this has turned into an interesting debate after yesterday's eye-roll inducing irrationality!

[Birdy]

Sorry - I've got this terrible indexical association between the words "investment", "Germany", and "Prescott Bush" (along with IBM, IG Farben, and so on and so on).

These historical comparisons, though, are impossible (though instructive). The Weimar constitution was in large measure drafted up by (my favourite sociologist) Max Weber, who was decidedly opposed to most things Marxist, and look where that ended up. Too many parties! Too much democracy! (I guess we're not too far removed from those kinds of possibilities - look at the recent French election where the vote was split between so many parties that the ultra-right National Front under LePen came in 2nd, to everybody's horror).

That too is all a bit abstract, of course. There was also the issue of spiralling economic chaos worldwide - recession, the Depression, and polarising politics between fascism and communism which each presented themselves as the only alternatives (leaving moderates out in the cold), and then it was just race to the bottom time.

I'm still stuck on the problem that if somebody doesn't have enough money in their pocket, they're plum outta luck. I mean, should we really be coordinating ourselves as a society towards a Spencer-esque, social Darwinist, thinning-of-the-herd kind of socio-political arrangement?

[Edit to add: Geez, I have to learn to type faster or something.]

i wouldn't go so far as to say the comparisons are impossible, i don't think they are. maybe there isn't a hitler part ii in our future (which i may point out, you had alluded to in the past ), but if the US debt isn't managed and repaid properly we could be in for a very bumpy road ahead, one that a fiscally irresponsible government might mismanage.. and really, i truly believe taxation as a method of debt repayment is NOT the answer. especially when we factor in inflation. some people in here are obviously afraid of the word 'investment' but my two fingers are crossed that they (the US) find some way to dress up their economy to stir some growth, when it's all said and done that is.

i don't think we're coordinating our society towards a "Spencer-esque, social Darwinist, thinning-of-the-herd kind of socio-political arrangement". We are far too left for that. I do think in order to 'modernize' our health care we do need a two-tier system. I think our proximity to the US privatized system scares a lot of people and in particular, confuses them on what "two-tier" actually is. the arguments against two-tier health care in this forum in particular make me think that people actually equate them with the privatized system, and there's a difference.

[Birdy]

Hey Birdy, I just don't see us being in the same boat as post-WWI Germany. Didn't our economy under Paul Martin do better than that? Learn from history, yes... I just think the comparison is a stretch.

As I've said in the past, my judgement of the Canadian health care system is based on personal experience... and I've had to use the system more than my age would suggest. I think it's excellent. And if I had a four year wait for surgery you can bet I'd be calling the office every day looking for a cancellation.

ollie, primarily, has your access to healthcare been in a large city? i think the funding is there for larger centres. rural canada is a completely different story. we can't even get a doctor to open up his doors in these parts. and that there is a problem. funding to smaller towns and rural areas isn't there.

[Birdy]

Sorry, but I don't think we'll ever move far from that despite anything the cons propose. Such is teh nature of living beside the world's biggest trader I'm afraid.

agreed. just trying to prove the point that we don't have a strong, diversified economy, but rather a volatile one, highly dependent on the US.

The "brain drain" was proven to be grossly exagerrated by right wing pundits to buttress the kind of arguments you're making YEARS ago. I can provide sources if you like.

as can i. my family doctor lives in forth worth, texas now.

Yes we are. The Harper vote was a protest vote to punish the ruling party. We also just voted Tommy Douglas a greatest canadian ever. Support for a strong public health care has consistently been high (even if it means paying a high tax rate).

the ruling party? that's a scary frickin' phrase right there.. sounds a tad bit dictatorial for me. if you believe the harper vote was punishment i can't change your mind, but i do disagree with it. i'd tend to say canadians are ready for some fresh air.

I sure that we can. It is a tough nut especially given the gulf that has existed between provincial and federal politics in the past years, but if ministers were able to be unified on the thing, I think we could revamp health care. I think they're already taking good steps to do so (establishing maximum wait times, etc.)

maximum wait times mean nothing to areas of doctor shortages. there's simply no doctors to wait for! unfortunately for those of us with rose coloured glasses on, it boils down to $$$$$$$$$$$$ and the lack thereof. dressing up differences between the different branches of government mean shit to me. the system is second rate because we can't afford to make it first rate.

[ollie]

ollie, primarily, has your access to healthcare been in a large city? i think the funding is there for larger centres. rural canada is a completely different story. we can't even get a doctor to open up his doors in these parts. and that there is a problem. funding to smaller towns and rural areas isn't there.

Large city -- yes. How far is the closest doctor to your parts?

[bouche]

from the T Start

"On the other, [stephen Harper] wants to focus and strengthen Ottawa's role in areas such as defence so that Canada can more effectively join the United States in what Harper has called the great moral battle against tyranny and terror."

oh....THAT's why he wants a stronger military! I thought it was only for defense! Phew!

[Birdy]

ollie' date=' primarily, has your access to healthcare been in a large city? i think the funding is there for larger centres. rural canada is a completely different story. we can't even get a doctor to open up his doors in these parts. and that there is a problem. funding to smaller towns and rural areas isn't there.[/quote']

Large city -- yes. How far is the closest doctor to your parts?

there are doctors here, but people are on waitlists for family doctors. if you don't have one you're subject to the walk-in clinic where you'll wait three quarters of the day to see one. try the emergency room and it's the exact same scenario.

specialized doctors and surgeons are a whole 'nother story. you need to drive down to london or windsor or toronto to get those services.. and then even so, you contend with the three year waitlist crap.

i called my doctor to make an appointment last february (2005).. my appointment is march 7th, 2006 at 1 pm.

[Blane]

if you believe the harper vote was punishment i can't change your mind, but i do disagree with it

From a CBC survey just before the election:

- Of those who voted for harper, only 41% actually wanted a Conservative government. 54% voted for him because they wanted Martin out. The rest don't know why the hell the voted for him.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canadavotes2006/national/2006/01/24/vote-poll060124.html

[Birdy]

change

[Birdy]

from the T Start

"On the other, [stephen Harper] wants to focus and strengthen Ottawa's role in areas such as defence so that Canada can more effectively join the United States in what Harper has called the great moral battle against tyranny and terror."

oh....THAT's why he wants a stronger military! I thought it was only for defense! Phew!

this, even i can cringe at.

[ollie]

i called my doctor to make an appointment last february (2005).. my appointment is march 7th, 2006 at 1 pm.

Did you ask them if you could get an earlier appointment if someone cancels? Have you tried calling back periodically? It's not always that easy but there are things the patient can do to make the system work for them.

[Birdy]

yes i did ask for them to call me with a cancellation and i've called twice, but considering that there is *hopefully* nothing wrong with me, and as it is just a check up, i'm not going to push them. i'm sure somebody needs them more than i do. i mean if they're booking a year down the road from now, there's a reason for it.

see i don't think the patient should have to make the system work for them. they system should automatically just do that.

[ollie]

see i don't think the patient should have to make the system work for them. they system should automatically just do that.

You sound an awful lot like a socialist for someone who claims to be a libertarian.

[\/\/illy]

i'd tend to say canadians are ready for some fresh air.

Perhaps you missed the Conservative announcement that they would scrap Kyoto if elected.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I got a kick out of meeting one of Cass' friend's parents last week, and he moved from young-Earth creationism to the need to abandon Kyoto in about two sentences. Scary . Who needs science, when you have conviction?

[Birdy]

cute willy.

ollie.. hehehe. i think may have dug myself into a corner over all this talk of 'systems'. maybe i'll cough it up to bad choice of words.

but you know what i'm saying. i shouldn't have to call and call and call. if it was 'first rate', i would have had an appointment last february.

[ollie]

but you know what i'm saying. i shouldn't have to call and call and call. if it was 'first rate', i would have had an appointment last february.

And all I'm saying is that most everything in life is a two-way process and it pays to be engaged in that process.

[Birdy]

okay

its been fun arguing with you. it's weird how so many words can always bring out the simplest of conclusions.

ps. still standing firm on my politics

[ollie]

I don't totally understand your response. Excuse me for not being verbose, I never have been. I always hated the minimum length requirement on school essays.

I'm not trying to change your political views, just pointing out what I see as logical inconsistencies. Lord knows i'm full of them.

I want to say "I'm out" but I know better than that.

[Birdy]

just meant that the argument seemed to be winding down.. you know i said 'all i'm saying is this' and you said 'all i'm saying is that' kinda thing and it's weird how arguments 'wind' down.. get talked out.. you know.

i'm not trying to change any views either. well maybe a few .. i'm the same way you are from a different angle. that's all.