PM says Quebec's 'a nation within a united Canada'

[The Chameleon]

The trump card in all of this Quebec as nation talk which usually leads to seperation talk, is this: "Sure, if you want to leave Canada fine, then you have to take you're share of the debt and use you own currency".

This only fair, but ever seperatist mantra I've heard states they want to continue to use Canada's money and leave the rest of the counrty with the portion of the debty they incurred.

Sorry Frenchy, you can't have you cake and eat it too.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

As expected -

Québécois as nation motion has no legal meaning: experts

Last Updated: Friday, November 24, 2006 | 8:59 AM ET

CBC News

Prime Minister Stephen Harper's proposed motion to recognize the Québécois as a nation in a united Canada has no legal meaning, some experts say.

The motion "means nothing in law" and could be seen as offensive to Quebecers when they realize it carries no legal clout, says Peter Russell, an expert on Canadian constitutional law.

"It's what I call symbolic engineering," Russell told the Canadian Press on Thursday. "It's about hoping you'll make people feel good. The risk is that you'll make others feel awful."

MPs are expected to debate Harper's motion on Friday, with a vote expected on Monday. Harper introduced it on Wednesday in the House of Commons, saying the Bloc Québécois forced the federal government to take a position on the issue.

The Bloc introduced a motion on Thursday that calls for recognition of Quebecers as a nation. The party amended it later to say Quebecers should be recognized as a nation that is "currently within Canada."

The issue has sparked a national debate that has made federal Liberal leadership candidates uneasy.

Russell said the motion might make separatists in particular more cynical about Canada, giving them a weapon with which to say that Quebec will never get anything from Canada.

He said it might also increase pressure on Quebec Premier Jean Charest to demand that Ottawa enshrine the notion of Quebec as a nation into the Constitution.

Can't predict 'judicial behaviour'

Russell said there would likely be so much protesting from the other provinces that it is unlikely Ottawa would push for such a constitutional change. But if it did make it into the Constitution, there is no telling how judges would interpret the language, he added.

"Judges can be creative," he said. "One of the hardest things to predict is judicial behaviour."

Patrick Monahan, a constitutional expert and dean of Osgoode Hall law school in Toronto, said Harper chose his words carefully, saying it is Quebecers themselves, not the province, that should be recognized as a nation.

Because the Québécois do not constitute a legal entity, the motion could not likely be used by the province to obtain more political power from Ottawa, Monahan said.

"A resolution of the House of Commons is not legally binding," he noted.

Monahan said a 1995 resolution that recognized Quebec as a distinct society has not had any impact on court decisions and has not been referred to in court cases.

It instructed Ottawa to take Quebec's distinctiveness into account, while Harper's motion does not include any instructions.

[Alexis]

i actually enjoy answering market research calls. i always read stats from them in articles and think "how can that many people think that?! i don't think that" and get frustrated. when they call and i can answer and have my opinion heard it makes me feel less frustrated when i see those stupid stats.

as far as the quebec as a nation thing goes...i'm in the "this again? seriously?" group over here smoking bowls on the couch. i can't think about it anymore than that or i'll cause some serious grey hair.

[bradm]

I saw Gerard Kennedy on The Hour last night. He was dead-set against the motion, for a lot of the reasons cited above. One thing he pointed out, though: the word "Quebecois" is used in the motion, even in the English language version of the motion. Why didn't the word "Quebecer" get used? I guess the word "Quebecois", when translated into English, is the word "Quebecois"...(One of my beefs with the motion is that, as well as not defining what "nation" means, it also doesn't define what "Quebecois" means.)

Aloha,

Brad

[guigsy]

(One of my beefs with the motion is that, as well as not defining what "nation" means, it also doesn't define what "Quebecois" means.)

Asked to define the Quebecois, Harper said only: "They know who they are."

[Birdy]

even with a definition (which i think is almost impossible), where does that leave the rest of us? what about the irish? the natives? the chinese? the indian? women? men? i could go on. it just seems all of these lines and definitions and distinctions do the exact opposite of making people feel as if they 'belong'. i so wish Harper would have never brought it up to begin with and rather continued to leave the issue in the dark... left to fall off somewhere and die. as much as i try, i can see no good in it... whatsoever.

[SmoothedShredder]

I think that this is just the kind of concession that The Province of Quebec has been aiming for since the Plains of Abraham. It's not much in terms of cost... and it seems to of brought two groups closer together that at one point (and many points) trying to rip each other apart.

What I think people involved are wary of are all the 'back doors' that might be opened... some that may interest me would be:

a) Regional Offical Languages, so every form the government produces does not have to be written in two languages... think of the paper savings alone Batman!

More Autonomy for Quebec, and eventually all the provinces... Canada is too big to be held together as a Federation, and we've spent too much valuble time on the issue (Thanks Liberal Mulroney Sandwich!!!), and too small to be incharge of the entire world so this was inevitable... besides Quebec isn't "going anywhere"... we'll always know exactly where she is! They just want a little lip service from the side that kicked their asses over 150 years ago!!! But didn't enialate them... okay maybe it was a tie...

Besides it's a resource economy now, and EVERY provice is stinkin rich, so each should be allowed a certain amount of autonomy at creating their own sustaiable regional ecconomies. The Federation with all it's inane waste of management of these vast pools of resources and labour have been a great hinderance to each and every province achieving this goal... kinda the exact opposite reason of why a Federation was deemed useful in the first place... And that's like totally my opinion man!

I got no problems with the term Quebecois... the real problem comes when I try to give myself a similar identity... I've come to the conclusion I'm a Morontowian... Montorwanian?!... ah, whom I kidding I'm just jelous cause Quebec is so damn cool!

Hehe, I just thoght about that Ottawa Sports station... during station Identification, the say "More On Sports" and it always sounds like Moron Sports to me... you would of thought that would of been gone along time ago! But during a recent Sens game!...

[Birdy]

i think where the problem lies in, is that it's not really a provincial issue, but rather a french issue... it's not ontario vs. quebec, or upper canada vs. lower canada, it's french vs. english... and in that when special recongition is given, other groups of people, not provinces, pipe up and say 'hey, what about us?', 'what's in it for us'. i'm all for greater provincial autonomy, but i'm definitely NOT for special recongition to people based on culture.

[SmoothedShredder]

I can see you fears... but I dunno... I think it's kinda enlighted, accepting, and useful to create a national identity based on a fairly homogenous and distict region... I hope they grant the same Natiohood to the Natives as well, and this is only the beginning of creating a greater fragmented awareness of the Place Canada that we all seem to live in together somehow ([color:purple]as opposed to the United States which is clearly different in everyway). This can all work if we can view a nation without firm boundaries while simutainously accepting the boundaries of Quebec for what they are and willing to accept places like this as being thought of as 'home lands'. Sure there are places in Quebec which aren't all French and don't follow the bloodlines of conquring force... but the same can be said about many places in the Nation of Canada... yet people are more then willing to assimilate themselves or choose to remain in someway 'distinct', though much more the former than the latter, and life keeps on chugging along!

[Birdy]

i dunno either.. it all seems to me to be unnecessary paperwork! where or when does it stop? we recongize quebec as a distinct society, we recognize the natives as a distinct society, whose next? it's like "STEP UP TO THE PLATE, it's SPECIAL RECOGNITION DAY!"... while i think it's important that people feel a sense of belonging and am against the idea of the cattle herd i think the americans adopt, i don't know if continuously stopping parliament to give a special shout out to a group of people who have only really formed this sort of collective identity in it's longest stretch for 100 years. it just seems as if we'll never get it right and the more we try, the more people get visibly upset about it... rather i think we should reach out to a collective identity that recognizes peoples of allllllllllllllllllllll cultures, races, genders, etc. After all, we're all in this together.. noone any better than the other.

[SmoothedShredder]

Maybe that's it... I'm not speaking for myself cause I'm not Quebecois, and I know it... but I'm getting the sense from Bloc that they do feel inferior and they do want some special regonition. I know this cause they say it, and have been saying it for a long long time. This doesn't invalidate other cultural groups concerns either, but it would be strange for Quebecers to advocate for other groups if they themselves didn't feel as though they were being treated justly. It makes sense for the Quebecers to advocate for their group, and say the Natives to Advocate for their Nationhood, and whoever else may be interested... Perhaps, if we can reach an amicable resolution (Quebecois vs. Canada) other groups that feel the same can get encouragement that the Quebecois were able to get their message through, and through the acceptance, they will feel encouraged to rise up! Civil speaking of course!

This motion is a test of our relationship, the sides are Us(Canada) and those who would call themselves Quebecois (which holds a decomcracy of a large continous area located primarily but not limited to the province of Quebec). The faster we accept it... the faster we can move on... the more psycological and cultural walls which remain, the longer this drama will play out, and the closer we will get to physical walls and hate filled dialoge. It's been done before, and could happen again... we have a real opportunity here to take the high road. What do we have to lose? And who could possibly get hurt by this that isn't already getting hurt in a similar fashion within the current government framework?

And what paper work? Like I suggested might happen, there would be less paperwork cause of having to translate and process less bilingual documents... net effect: Some paperwork now for less paperweork later!

Edited November 29, 2006 by Guest

[Birdy]

it's easy to get behind you William-- ideally, i'm with you, but there's another part of me that thinks perhaps this strategy would have the opposite effect... and make groups feel even more alienated.

i look at it like all these different groups are office workers... and management is government.. each office worker is doing their best, working extremely hard, hoping to get recognized for their work by management. one office worker seems to be louder and stronger than the rest about their stuff and ends up with a promotion... how do the rest of the office workers feel? while it would be proactive of them to follow those same steps as their promoted coworker, i think just as easily they could be discouraged, thinking why does he deserve that? i work just as hard! i do just as much! it has the potential to reek of jealousy and create apathy.

i like your solution for it's endpoint, but i guess i'm just wondering if it would have the effect on other groups as you hope it would.

Edited November 30, 2006 by Guest

[phorbesie]

if you need any ideas ollie... Link

[Birdy]

Maybe that's it... I'm not speaking for myself cause I'm not Quebecois, and I know it... but I'm getting the sense from Bloc that they do feel inferior and they do want some special regonition. I know this cause they say it, and have been saying it for a long long time. This doesn't invalidate other cultural groups concerns either, but it would be strange for Quebecers to advocate for other groups if they themselves didn't feel as though they were being treated justly. It makes sense for the Quebecers to advocate for their group, and say the Natives to Advocate for their Nationhood, and whoever else may be interested... Perhaps, if we can reach an amicable resolution (Quebecois vs. Canada) other groups that feel the same can get encouragement that the Quebecois were able to get their message through, and through the acceptance, they will feel encouraged to rise up! Civil speaking of course!

This motion is a test of our relationship, the sides are Us(Canada) and those who would call themselves Quebecois (which holds a decomcracy of a large continous area located primarily but not limited to the province of Quebec). The faster we accept it... the faster we can move on... the more psycological and cultural walls which remain, the longer this drama will play out, and the closer we will get to physical walls and hate filled dialoge. It's been done before, and could happen again... we have a real opportunity here to take the high road. What do we have to lose? And who could possibly get hurt by this that isn't already getting hurt in a similar fashion within the current government framework?

And what paper work? Like I suggested might happen, there would be less paperwork cause of having to translate and process less bilingual documents... net effect: Some paperwork now for less paperweork later!

what i said above, and the more i think about it, if we are to be continuously granting special recognition to various groups, wouldn't that really take away what's so "special" about it?

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Are you suggesting we all be identical with people in and with power?

[Birdy]

no!

i just doubt that words of recognition are going to solve a problem that has existed since the plains of abraham, and arguably even before either the english or french ever bore witness to the shores of north america! our attempts to rectify this to date have fallen flat on their faces, and at their most dramatic points, have come close to splitting up our great country! i'm suggesting perhaps our ideas of how to fix it aren't the best and actually in light of the root of the problem, might even serve to trivialize the situation.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

and actually in light of the root of the problem, might even serve to trivialize the situation.

Spot on.

I feel like sitting down and reading through Charles Taylor's Politics of Recognition again (so too should Harper, for that matter).

[SmoothedShredder]

no!

i just doubt that words of recognition are going to solve a problem that has existed since the plains of abraham, and arguably even before either the english or french ever bore witness to the shores of north america! our attempts to rectify this to date have fallen flat on their faces, and at their most dramatic points, have come close to splitting up our great country! i'm suggesting perhaps our ideas of how to fix it aren't the best and actually in light of the root of the problem, might even serve to trivialize the situation.

I'm looking at it like a scientist... like reintroducing a substance at a different dose to see how the subject (Canadian public) think about it.

For me, my reaction is pretty non-challant. I don't think any such terminology like "Nation" is really going to change the fundamental way in which the government works. I mean ultimately, they are 'in charge' and if they can ceremoniously name nations to large contionous regions of like minded people who choose to externally identify themselves as 'significant', then so be it. Down in Ottawa the Government sets up an office to work on this... talk about a Qualitative Cencus potential!!! Besides, if this goes through, I'd be really interested to what other groups would step up!!! I think it could be really enlightening and a great step towards a self-realized Nation of Canada!... and hopefully by that point we'll be making great steps towards a self-realized 'Nation of the World' state anyways!

And I just can't get over the fact that there are so many people in Canada that Identify themselves as someone other than "Canadian"... It's like "Canada" is the groom at the alter waiting for all it's Brides to come home... and I'm not sure that'll ever happen. I got lots of Family out west, and a sure way to get a giggle is just to mention the word "Ottawa". BC is essentially exodused Ontarians that were sick and tired of the old ways... <<>>>... The East coast is like visiting some marverlous parallel universe!!! Quebec is well Quebec... Toronto has a Hard time seeing past it's own eyebrow's... "[color:purple]There's a Northern Ontario?!?"... and we all know how our Native Friends feel about our relationship with "Canada"...

So "Canada" better start ackowledging these "groups" for what they are, cause if one thing is consistant... the "groups" have a grudge against Canada, and it's time for some bridge building... This "Nation" question is nothing more than an Olive Branch, one I hope is accepted... I said it before and I'll say it again... the way to win over Quebecers is not to patrionize them by electing another Millionire from their province... it's by having an outsider with awarness of their differences and a desire to make amends. If anything it's fun to watch...

Translation Birdy: I think we'll have to agree to disagree! You crazy Libertarian!

[The Chameleon]

This whole thing is like when you work somewhere and they give you a promotion in the form of a new title, but you don't get a bigger salary.

[Birdy]

Translation Birdy: I think we'll have to agree to disagree! You crazy Libertarian!

haha.. ok, ok, ok!

who you callin' crazy!?