yayyyyyy God

[Thorgnor]

So don't buy the ones with that stuff on the label, consumer.

[d_rawk]

Ok, so if you are just providing a helpful hint that frugal non-jews who might want to save $10 bucks a year, give or take, might want to buy their food from non-kosher compliant producers, that's a handy tip.

It's not like the money just disappears -- unless, as you suggested in the food politics thread, that it is actually rerouted off to fund nefarious Zionist purposes.

Not to overuse an analogy, but again, I could probably save a dime or two here and there if I only bought chocolate bars from companies that didn't bother making sure that chocolate bars that aren't meant to contain nuts aren't contaminated with nut residue. But it would belong in the Foodeeze forum. Probably maintaining a kosher aisle in the grocery store isn't free, either, and I could probably save a buck going to a different grocery store.

Is Loeb funding Zionism?

[Birdy]

Take a look around the grocery store, not much is left.

[Thorgnor]

We should deprive our neighbors and friends of the same ease and comfort that we take for granted out of the principle that we would be doing business with Jews?

Celebrating diversity by fearmongering against Zionist grocery plots... maybe you're right about secularism radicalizing people?

[d_rawk]

per product you buy it's not a lot of money, but add up the market and it's a lot of money.

And what about economies of scale? Are you sure mass produced products wouldn't cost you more if the companies which produce them gave up a large market section that is clearly providing them bottom line profitability? And try explaining that decision to the shareholders, let alone the regular purchasers.

Sorry YT, I know we're just hammering on you now. But this has just blown my mind.

[Birdy]

We should deprive our neighbours and friends of the same ease and comfort that we take for granted out of the principle that we would be doing business with Jews?

Did you really get that from me saying 'look around the grocery store, there's not much left'? How?

I am not the one to be right about secularism radicalizing people. That was in an article I posted.

[Thorgnor]

Not every post that comes after yours is aimed at you directly B. I'm not going to agree that secularism should be abandoned, who wrote the article... I'd like to write them a letter

As an aside...

This was in reference to Dawkins...

Had the exact same thoughts when listening to his responses during the question period.

Has anyone seen "what the bleep?" I like how they state that the church and science could bury the hatchet with the discoveries and mysticsm around quantum physics.

Dawkins isn't trying to make ammends he's trying to flex his POV's muscle. Not very peaceful.

Appears Deeps didn't mean to be entirely raw, again my bad.

[hamilton]

per product you buy it's not a lot of money, but add up the market and it's a lot of money.

And what about economies of scale? Are you sure mass produced products wouldn't cost you more if the companies which produce them gave up a large market section that is clearly providing them bottom line profitability? And try explaining that decision to the shareholders, let alone the regular purchasers.

Sorry YT, I know we're just hammering on you now. But this has just blown my mind.

Having worked in the industry for a considerable length of time I can say that this is very true, especially in heavily urban areas - particularly Montreal and southern Ontario. The companies go out of their way to make these products available because there is a huge demand for them - especially around the high holidays, when even many Jews who wouldn't normally do so buy kosher. And, of course, the enormous quantity of kosher and halal product moved in these markets represents a lot of profit. Without the insider perspective, I would never have suspected the sheer volume of product movement for these items. There's even kosher Pepsi.

[SaggyBalls]

What about economies of scale?

I find it hard to believe that there's a Rabbi standing over every line blessing the food as it comes out of the factories.

These symbols are on every single mass produced product.

It sort of waters down the whole principle of keeping Kosher doesn't it? To sanctify one's dinner table?

I think it's silly that this happens, as it's not making the products any better, just accessible.

I'd be more likely to buy meat from a Halal or Kosher butcher, but Kraft Dinner? Come on.

When there's a legitimate restriction for food production...like non-GMO or a reliable organic food supervising body then maybe some of these labels will really have some integrity.

The Hare Krishnas make all of their food for Krsna and it sanctifies their meal. And it also tastes amazing and is healthy.

Ain't nothing special about a tube of Sour Cream and Onion pringles.

[d_rawk]

I'd be more likely to buy meat from a Halal or Kosher butcher, but Kraft Dinner? Come on.

I'm totally nonplussed.

It isn't about you, and kosher dietary law is not restricted by any means to meat.

What the heck is going on in here?

[hamilton]

I find it hard to believe that there's a Rabbi standing over every line blessing the food as it comes out of the factories.

I've seen it with my own eyes.

[hamilton]

I find it hard to believe that there's a Rabbi standing over every line blessing the food as it comes out of the factories.

I've seen it with my own eyes.

Not every "line" mind you, but they often bless by the pallet-load.

[SaggyBalls]

come on.

[hamilton]

WTF, are you accusing me of lying? I worked in the grocery industry for years. I visited many food production companies as a part of those jobs - not just factories, but slaughterhouses, too. I'm telling you, I have seen rabbis in factories blessing pallets of products. It takes a few seconds. Many of these companies keep a rabbi *on staff* for this purpose.

And as for the Jewish councils which approve the labelling, the ones that I have been involved with seem pretty serious about maintaining standards. They're not fucking around just to make a buck.

If you are suggesting that the opportunity to deceive customers exists - that some companies add labels to things that aren't really kosher - of course it does. But as far as I have been able to determine, the majority of manufacturers take this pretty seriously because the market they are serving takes it seriously.

[SaggyBalls]

calm down you big gorilla.

I don't doubt the guidelines are kept by many companies with a Rabbi on hand...and I know enough Kosher Keeping Jews that keep kosher because it's God's request...

Kosher symbols on a tube of Pringles doesn't really do much to inspire Sanctity in one's pantry.

[hamilton]

calm down you big gorilla.

I don't doubt the guidelines are kept by many companies with a Rabbi on hand...and I know enough Kosher Keeping Jews that keep kosher because it's God's request...

Kosher symbols on a tube of Pringles doesn't really do much to inspire Sanctity in one's pantry.

I really don't understand what point you are trying to make. Are you implying that Proctor & Gamble in particular doesn't adhere to kosher guidelines in the manufacture of their products? Or that Pringles shouldn't be kosher regardless, because it's junk food? Or that companies are tricking Jews into buying crap by telling them that it's okay because it's kosher, thus diminishing the sanctity of what they are eating?

Regardless of whether the food is good for you, if it doesn't violate spiritual food rules and has received the proper blessing, it's kosher. Purchasing food that's not healthy for you is a separate issue from whether or not food is kosher. It's a personal freedom issue. All the companies are doing is giving the Jewish consumer the option to purchase the product they are producing if that is what they would like to do.

[SaggyBalls]

"Or that Pringles shouldn't be kosher regardless, because it's junk food? Or that companies are tricking Jews into buying crap by telling them that it's okay because it's kosher, thus diminishing the sanctity of what they are eating?"

a little bit of this and a little bit of thinking that since companies spend a lot of money for the right to use the label, then we could easily get them to fund local agriculture and support more home grown food and nutrition councils.

[Thorgnor]

fuck!!!!!!

Edited November 26, 2008 by Guest
i just lost a whole post

[d_rawk]

a little bit of this and a little bit of thinking that since companies spend a lot of money for the right to use the label, then we could easily get them to fund local agriculture and support more home grown food and nutrition councils.

They spend some money, because it makes them more money. This is a pretty fundamental concept of capitalist corporate enterprise. Your proposal would need to account for how they could fund local agriculture and home grown food initiatives and increase their own profit over what they are currently making by doing so. Not impossible - necessarily - but not trivial, and of all the money they spend in various capacities to increase sales and margins, I doubt that kosher certification would be the first thing worth letting go of in that interest even if the money was there to be had.

Part of the reason why the obsessing over kosher certification seems an unhealthy pre-occupation.

[edit:] I take back 'obsessing'. Posting twice concurrently on two threads demonstrates only a peculiar current interest, not an obsession. It is the first time that you've raised it, after all. The word I used is unfair.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Guest

[hamilton]

"Or that Pringles shouldn't be kosher regardless, because it's junk food? Or that companies are tricking Jews into buying crap by telling them that it's okay because it's kosher, thus diminishing the sanctity of what they are eating?"

a little bit of this and a little bit of thinking that since companies spend a lot of money for the right to use the label, then we could easily get them to fund local agriculture and support more home grown food and nutrition councils.

What's in it for the companies? In order to "get them" to do what you want them to, you'd have to have a strong case arguing that such a move would be profitable - which would mean showing that there is a sufficient demand from the consumer for such a move. The average consumer is probably pretty apathetic about the issue. Or, at least more apathetic than Jewish customers who want to have kosher food.

[hamilton]

Damn, I type slowly.

[SaggyBalls]

Obsessing? not obsessing. Bringing up in a politics forum on the internet...

Now, considering that we're at the brink of economic meltdown and the current economic system doesn't work.

The Gov't will probably have to bail out the food industry and we may be able to demand they use their profits for other things.

I don't think they should let go of the certification. I think it should demand stricter guidelines and a higher quality of end product.

they could make the food better.

I don't know how to get them to give something of value back to the nation, but i don't get paid to figure this stuff out...so it'd take me awhile to get an answer for that.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Guest
quit pouting

[Thorgnor]

define 'money'

[SaggyBalls]

All this Kosher talk put a 'learn Biblical hebrew online' banner.

I think that helps someone find a definition of money.

We're getting pretty close to a 'starting over' period...end times, the end of the world as we currently know it...

I'd love to see a mass push to putting more focus on food, nutrition, personal spirit, and positive living.

We'll probably see the value of money redefined after a mass reprinting - and not because of a cheeky hippy.

" The average consumer is probably pretty apathetic about the issue. Or, at least more apathetic than Jewish customers who want to have kosher food."

I guess it all depends on how particular they are about their kosher food. 'More apathetic'...I'm glad you at least left some room for interpretation there Hamilton.

It's like having 2 parents or having 2 loving parents...

If the parents just being in your life is enough then that's fine but it doesn't make them exceptionally good for anyone in the situation.

Since I'm not Jewish it's not my place to make demands over other peoples' lifestyles and product choices, but as someone with an external perspective I do see that those that keep kosher just to follow guidelines aren't too far off Sunday Christians aside from separating meat and dairy...so at worst their farts probably don't stink as bad...

(but shit still stinks)

It's at least being particular which to me is entirely honourable, as I feel intention brings a lot out of the world around us.

I do think that the discussion is a worthwhile one to have, especially in God and Food threads as it applies to both but for different reasons.

I entirely expected this to be an interesting back and forth, and I hope that more people have more to say about it, because food and forward moving experiences are important to me.

[phishtaper]

calm down you big gorilla.