Nazi Tactics by Israel and America

[faoy]

Any thoughts?

____________________

By Joel Fischer

10/02/06 "Information Clearing House" -- -- As a Jew who witnessed the loss

of 6,000,000 of my fellow Jews, most likely including members of my own

extended family who were still in Europe, in the brutal Nazi slaughter of the

Holocaust, I believe I know Nazi tactics when I see them. Because of this

deeply personal history, I am sickened by the Nazi-like tactics being used by

the Israelis in Gaza and Lebanon. These tactics are fully supported by the

Bush administration as legitimate attempts at "self defense" against the

alleged incursions by Palestinian and Hezbollah guerillas. This collusion

between the US and the Israelis is so similar to the Axis Powers of World War

II that I believe they constitute a new "Axis OF Powers" for the 21st Century.

This Axis links Israel, the most militaristic country in the Middle East, with

the United States, the most militaristic country in the world, in a quest to

dominate, intimidate and develop their hegemony over other countries.

So, what are these Nazi-like tactics being used by the new Axis of Powers?

TERROR BOMBINGS; CONDUCTING A BRUTAL WAR AGAINST

CIVILIANS.

The "shock and awe" bombing strategy used by the US and Israel are simply

another name for the brutal bombings of civilian populations used by the

Nazis in World War II. The current horrific wars against innocent men,

women and children are geared toward intimidation, terror and fear among the

civilian population in a depraved attempt to get them to pressure their own

regime to submit, abdicate or surrender. The Axis even goes so far as to

deliberately and brutally target infrastructure such as power plants and even

supply routes bringing food and medicine to civilians, in an effort to make life

indescribably more horrible for innocent civilians. In fact, Amnesty

International has accused Israel of war crimes stating that Israel broke

international law by deliberately destroying LEBANON'S (not Hezbollah's)

civilian infrastructure! These are the war strategies the US used in Iraq and

Afghanistan and Israel is using in Palestine and Lebanon. Tens of thousands

of innocent people have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and

Palestine by these Nazi-like tactics by Israel and America.

The US and Israel don't stop with terror bombings. Invading other countries

illegally, they then continue to intimidate the civilian populations by illegal

and unethical searches of peoples' homes, dragging men and sometimes

women into the street hooded and trussed up like animals. Nothing can be

more humiliating to these people then these intrusive home invasions at all

hours of the night where civilians are trussed up and thrown out into the street

in full view of the neighbors as a warning to any one who might even express

an opinion about the illegal occupation of foreign troops in their own country.

The US-Israeli war against civilians has produced deaths and humiliation but

not submission. In fact, the stupidity of this Nazi strategy in World War II and

its results in HARDENING opposition, not WEAKENING IT, seems lost on

the leaders of the Axis of Powers.

As I write this, news is reported that the Israelis fired missiles into a village

killing 15 civilians, mainly women and children, while another missile was

fired at a CONVOY OF CIVILIANS FLEEING THE VIOLENCE, killing

seven and wounding 22! Are these not exactly the same actions that the Nazis

carried out against civilian targets?

TRUMPED UP EXCUSES FOR INVASIONS

Afghanistan "harbored terrorists." Iraq has "weapons of mass destruction" and

"threatened the US." Palestinians elected the "wrong government" and also

may have kidnapped one Israeli soldier. Hezbollah ? BUT NOT LEBANON-

allegedly kidnapped two Israeli soldiers. In all cases, including those where

the reason for invasion was shown to be lies, the results were the deaths of

thousands of innocent people, most sadly because of PRETEXTS by the US

and Israeli governments.

Because of American propaganda, a little known fact is that Hezbollah is not

even considered to be a terrorist organization by most of the world! Indeed,

only the US and its puppet governments of Israel, Canada and Britain consider

Hezbollah as a terrorist organization! In fact, Hezbollah and Hamas have

exchanged prisoners many times with Israel who now has decided to use the

Hamas and Hezbollah "kidnappings" as their latest pretext to invade and

slaughter their neighbors.

Israel and the US have violated not only the United Nations Charter, but

numerous UN resolutions in their murderous wars of hegemony and

imperialism. Thus, the Axis of Powers becomes the real terrorists in the

Middle East, not the Palestinian, Iraq, Afghan and Lebanese forces who really

are engaging in legitimate self defense against the invaders/occupying forces.

Now compare the pretexts used by the Axis of Powers with those used by the

Nazis in World War II. Fake border incidents. Falsified cases of

discrimination against Germans in the countries targeted for invasion. The

need for "LIVINGSPACE." Aggressor nations always develop huge

propaganda machines to try to justify their actions. And when one lie is

exposed ?there WERE no weapons of mass destruction- another is concocted

to take its place, e.g., the need to bring "democracy" to other nations. Yet,

how hypocritical is it that the US invaders are allies of many other anti-

democratic nations, in that very same Middle East region, such as Saudi

Arabia, Pakistan and Egypt? How even more hypocritical is it that Israel, with

US support, in their quest to "democratize," invade two of the only states in

the Middle East with actual democracies, Palestine and Lebanon? There is no

end to the lies and hypocrisy when Nazi tactics are employed by aggressor

nations.

In fact, investigative reporter Seymour Hersh published an article in the

August 21 issue of "The New Yorker," that confirms, based on information

leaked from current and former Bush administration officials, that the Israeli

invasion of Lebanon had nothing to do with the kidnappings of two Israeli

soldiers. The invasion was planned by US and Israeli officials as preparation

and a trial run for an invasion of Iran in 2007! Hersh wrote that "...according

to a former senior intelligence official, the Israeli plan for Lebanon was the

'mirror image of what the United States has been planning for Iran.'" George

Bush never denied the substance of this article, calling it only, "wild

speculation!"

A new book, "Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawai'i

to Iraq," (Stephen Kinzer; 2006) provides the clearest possible evidence that

"regime change" has been a strategy of American foreign policy for at least

110 years. The phony excuses and US government lies may change with the

situation, but the strategy stays the same.

DEHUMANIZATION OF THE ENEMY

As the Nazis viewed Jews, Slav, Gypsies and virtually all other nationalities

as inferior to their "master race" so that their soldiers would not experience

guilt over their genocidal slaughters, so do the Israelis and Bush

administration actually view Muslims as inferior. The Axis sees "the other,"

the "enemy," as inferior, so that deaths of tens of thousands of "the other"

seems justified while deaths on "our" side ?or kidnappings of a few in this

case- are viewed by the Axis of Powers as horrendous and unforgivable. This

dehumanization occurs officially and unofficially. It occurs officially, e.g.,

when Bush responds to a question about how many Iraqis have been killed by

casually replying "oh, about 30,000," as though he were counting the cattle on

his ranch. (As of August 2006, there are between 45,000 and 50,000 Iraqi

dead according to US estimates!) It occurs unofficially, e.g., when troops on

the ground dehumanize their enemy by calling them "towel heads" in the same

way the US military in Vietnam called the Vietnamese "gooks." Even the

media are co-opted in this dehumanization process as witness the daily reports

of total American deaths, but virtually no reports of the overall death tolls

among "the enemy."

Use of terms by US and Israeli propagandists like "Muslim Terrorists,"

"Muslim Extremists," and the latest demeaning term by Bush, "Muslim

Fascists," is an attempt to taint all of Islamic religion and culture. Bush knows

that the vast majority of his constituency in the US only hears the word

"Muslim." Contrast that with the number of times we hear terms like

"Christian Crusaders," "Christian or Jewish Extremists," "Christian or Jewish

Neo-Nazis." These epithets are strictly off limits in the US, no matter how

accurate they may be in depicting our government. The anti-Muslim insults

are all part of the dehumanization process against people who are not only

NOT terrorists or extremists, but defending their countries against illegal

invasion and occupation by the Christian/Jewish Axis of Power.

Even more telling of this dehumanization is that the ratio of "enemy" killed to

Americans and Israelis killed or kidnapped approaches hundreds to one. This

is reminiscent of the same strategy used by the Nazis in WWII: slaughter of

tens to hundreds of civilians when the Resistance killed even one German.

Sadly, the US-Israeli ratio of our dead to their dead even exceeds the kill ratio

of the Nazis! Can there be any clearer evidence of the view that "they," the

"enemy," are seen as less worthy of life and dignity than "us?"

UNETHICAL AND ILLEGAL ENTRIES, SEARCHES AND

DETENTIONS; USE OF TORTURE

There seems to be little disagreement, even from many US sources, that the

Axis has violated international law and basic human decency by its violent

repression of civilian populations. Both the US and Israel have deemed it their

right to break in to any home in occupied territory that they wish in the search

for "the enemy." Television news displays almost nightly present the images

of Iraqi civilians screaming and crying in protest and desperation as

occupation troops break into their homes, search any where they want, and

then place hoods over the men, tie their hands behind their backs and roughly

shove them to their knees. TO THEIR KNEES!

The US and Israel also hold THOUSANDS of prisoners from the lands they

have invaded and occupied with basic human rights denied to many if not

most of those prisoners. Even the puppet government of Britain has called for

the release of prisoners from Guantanamo Bay, hundreds of whom have been

held incommunicado FOR YEARS, with no contacts with family or legal

representatives allowed. Meanwhile, the media have uncovered reports of

secret prisons around the world where CIA victims are spirited to and never

heard from again.

The visual reports from Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq show the widespread use of

torture there, and many international organizations ?from the United Nations

to the Red Cross to Amnesty International- have provided evidence and

protested the widespread use of torture by Americans and their allies,

approved AS POLICY by the Bush administration!

All of these tactics are EXACTLY the same as the ones used by the Nazis in

WWII. Are these prisons, those that are known and the many that are secret-

not American concentration camps?

************

Of course, I want Israel to survive and flourish as a state, but alongside the

equally flourishing Palestinian and Lebanese states whose autonomy and

actual statehood Israel continues to deny, financially, militarily, and

economically. As an American and as a Jew, my heart is broken; I cringe in

disbelief and horror at the terror my own people have spread.

Terror bombing, illegal invasion of other countries using trumped up excuses,

dehumanization of the enemy as inferior, widespread use of torture; these are

exactly the same tactics the Nazis used. But these tactics will NEVER produce

either the peace or victory the Axis of Powers claim they want. Remember

WWII. The Nazis lost!

Joel Fischer Professor University of Hawai'i School of

Social Work Honolulu, HI

Edited January 11, 2007 by Guest

[afro poppa]

Something tells me I don't even need to read this to know that its ridiculous...so I won't.

[faoy]

Without reading it why do you think it’s ridiculous? Is there something I don’t know about Joel Fischer? I googled the guy and couldn’t find anything that suggested he’s fucked.

I was hoping this would spark some interesting dialogue. There are some things stated in the piece that I feel are fare from ridiculous. I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s all ridiculous, or pointless, or whatever. Some of it sure, all of it I really don’t think so.

[d_rawk]

I think it's the sensationalist title (Nazi in the title of anything that isn't about - well ... y'know ... nazis - is something of a red flag) and the USE OF ALL CAPS FOR EMPHASIS that make it seem less than credible, or at least not likely to be dispassionate and impartial, at a glance.

That doesn't mean that there's nothing of substance in the article of course, or that he doesn't raise points worth discussing. Haven't read through it yet myself.

It could just be that it looks long and we're a lazy lot!

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

It is decidedly a sensationalistic angle on difficult material (and as d_rawk points out, in form as well - pretty cartoonish), and does manage to Godwin an important discussion from the beginning . I'm sure he has lost lots of readers by his choice of language.

I can see why an author - here self-defined as an American and a Jew, criticising the US and Israel - would want to shock a select audience into seeing their behaviour, or behaviour they might support, in a new light, but where it would be received, I expect it would be preaching to the proverbial choir (i.e. I doubt anyone who wasn't into hearing new framings of these kinds of criticism would come away newly persuaded by anything). It's driven by metaphor; I could say I'm equally freaked out by Islamic, Christian, and Jewish fundamentalists, e.g., but I'm not going to say they're all just the same.

But then, just how are they different? Are those worth emphasising?

I'm sure I was going somewhere with that thought, but truth be told I'm really tired right now.

[afro poppa]

Without reading it why do you think it’s ridiculous? Is there something I don’t know about Joel Fischer? I googled the guy and couldn’t find anything that suggested he’s fucked.

I was hoping this would spark some interesting dialogue. There are some things stated in the piece that I feel are fare from ridiculous. I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s all ridiculous, or pointless, or whatever. Some of it sure, all of it I really don’t think so.

Still not having read it, I am sure the article raises interesting points about comparing the Nazis to the Israeli and US gov'ts...but as a Jewish person who has studied in depth the holocaust, the Nazis were an evil evil evil evil group of people (who not only hated Jews, but black people, homosexuals, people who had brown hair, asians, etc) and they did evil evil things. What the US and Israel may be considered wrong by some, by no means are they as bad as the Nazis, no matter what this article says.

I am sorry, this is my opinion and I am sticking with it.

[djmelbatoast]

I read an article in Adbusters (last year or the year before) about the wall. In it several high ranking Isreali officials (can't quite remember who) were quoted as saying that the Nazi ghetoes were indeed the inspiration for what they were doing with the Palastinian border. I seem to remember a quote saying something like, "we learnt alot from that experience" and it made me feel pretty ill. I haven't read this article either but that is because it is really long, but I think that dismissing it out of hand is just as problematic as taking the whole thing as gospel.

[faoy]

Without reading it why do you think it’s ridiculous? Is there something I don’t know about Joel Fischer? I googled the guy and couldn’t find anything that suggested he’s fucked.

I was hoping this would spark some interesting dialogue. There are some things stated in the piece that I feel are fare from ridiculous. I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s all ridiculous' date=' or pointless, or whatever. Some of it sure, all of it I really don’t think so.

[/quote']

Still not having read it, I am sure the article raises interesting points about comparing the Nazis to the Israeli and US gov'ts...but as a Jewish person who has studied in depth the holocaust, the Nazis were an evil evil evil evil group of people (who not only hated Jews, but black people, homosexuals, people who had brown hair, asians, etc) and they did evil evil things. What the US and Israel may be considered wrong by some, by no means are they as bad as the Nazis, no matter what this article says.

I am sorry, this is my opinion and I am sticking with it.

I'm well aware of Nazi history.

This will probably offend you and it's not my intention but I think your opinion is very close-minded. The article is simply saying that Nazi tactics are being used which is true. The number of casualties and the degree of evil isn't the point.

I'm pretty sure the thousands of people around the world that have been murdered and tortured at the hands of the US gov't would agree that Nazi tactics are being used. It's a fact and people need to start thinking about it.

I guess it's hard to discuss this, or for you to understand it, if you don't read the article.

[faoy]

I read an article in Adbusters (last year or the year before) about the wall. In it several high ranking Isreali officials (can't quite remember who) were quoted as saying that the Nazi ghetoes were indeed the inspiration for what they were doing with the Palastinian border. I seem to remember a quote saying something like, "we learnt alot from that experience" and it made me feel pretty ill. I haven't read this article either but that is because it is really long, but I think that dismissing it out of hand is just as problematic as taking the whole thing as gospel.

I read something similar. Pretty fucking creepy but not surprising.

[AdamH]

Afro Poppa I think you should just delete your own posts and re-submit them after taking the maybe 10 minutes needed to read this.

Dr.Evil you've made a good assessment that happens to mirror my feelings on this subject. The lastmost paragraphs seem to make sense and are probably what he was trying to get at:

Of course, I want Israel to survive and flourish as a state, but alongside the

equally flourishing Palestinian and Lebanese states whose autonomy and

actual statehood Israel continues to deny, financially, militarily, and

economically. As an American and as a Jew, my heart is broken; I cringe in

disbelief and horror at the terror my own people have spread.

Terror bombing, illegal invasion of other countries using trumped up excuses,

dehumanization of the enemy as inferior, widespread use of torture; these are

exactly the same tactics the Nazis used. But these tactics will NEVER produce

either the peace or victory the Axis of Powers claim they want. Remember

WWII. The Nazis lost!

[scottieking]

Something tells me I don't even need to read this to know that its ridiculous...so I won't.

Afro poppa, knowing that you are a standup individual and somewhat invested in this topic through faith etc., I hope you do not take this as a personal slight.

However, it is actually this sort of thinking (and the subsequant post further railing against an article you didn't read) that really gets my goat. I really try to impart upon every student I have the need to fully engage points of view of "the other side" as horrific or wrong as it may be. THEN rail, rant, [color:red]and most importantly disprove using fact and not simply opinion.

I watch Fox News periodically for this very reason.

Read it, then diss it on specific points.

[djmelbatoast]

There is an article in this months Harper's Magazine about counterinsurgency warfare. It is far more convincing than this. In it the author says that if the US wanted to be successsful in Iraq that they would need to fight the insurgents the way the Nazi did with mass exicutions for every attack on the occupiers. Out terrorizing the insurgents for control over the general public. He did not suggest that they should or would do this but thought it was the only way possible to win a war such as this.

This is article though is pretty much just sensationalistic crap. There is however I believe an article out there waiting to be well written about the same topics that Joel Fischer here is bringing up. This just isn't it.

[Hal Johnson]

This probably isnt it either, but it does paint a pretty bleak picture as well. Its written by Haroon Siddiqui of the Toronto Star.

A young Israeli was in Canada last week raising ethical questions about the conduct of Israeli soldiers in the Occupied Territories.

Yehuda Shaul was born in Jerusalem to an American mother and Canadian father (from Toronto). Shaul went to school in a West Bank settlement and served in the army from 2001 to 2004. He did a 14-month stint in Hebron, guarding about 650 settlers living among approximately 150,000 Palestinians.

He is one of the founders of Break the Silence, a group of ex-soldiers speaking out about what they saw and did during their tour of duty in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

At 6-foot 1-inch, the heavy-set Shaul cuts an imposing but engaging figure with his beard, ponytail and the kippa. He smiles easily.

He had a lot to say during a vegetarian kosher lunch we shared in my office with his Toronto host, Judith Wiseman.

He came here after a tour of six American cities. In Toronto, he spoke at the Winchevsky Centre of the United Jewish People's Order and at the Quaker House. Then he was off to London, Ottawa and Montreal.

He recounted the moment when, three months before being released from the army, he was alone and wondering what he would do upon returning to civilian life.

It struck him, he said, that he had become "a monster," doing things that were not right. "It was a frightening moment."

He spoke to fellow soldiers. "They were feeling the same: `Something's rotten here.' Israelis don't know what goes on here, and we must tell them.'"

Within three months of being discharged in March 2004, Shaul and friends mounted an exhibit, Bringing Hebron to Tel Aviv. It had powerful photos and video testimony by 64 soldiers showing and describing the treatment meted out to Palestinians by the troops as well as some of the settlers.

There were pictures of Palestinians bound and blindfolded. There was a photo of a settler carrying an assault rifle with a decal on the magazine clip: "Kill 'em all, Let God sort 'em out." Another was of graffiti on a wall: "Arabs to the gas chamber."

The exhibit drew 7,000 visitors and much media coverage.

Other soldiers who had served in the West Bank and Gaza came forward. More photos were gathered, as well as about 400 audio and video testimonies.

In them, soldiers talk about the total power of the occupiers over the occupied – throwing Palestinians out of their homes; making them stand for hours for disobeying the curfew or trying to bypass a checkpoint or even smiling or arguing at the wrong time, Shaul said.

"We can play with them. This is the mindset from which everything flows."

In Hebron, Shaul manned a machine gun. "It can shoot dozens of grenades a minute up to a distance of about 2,000 metres. We'd shoot 40 or 50 a day ...

"We had three high posts, two where we had kicked the Palestinian families out of and the third was a Palestinian school which we had closed down.

"The idea was that anytime they shoot, we shoot back.

"But the machine gun is not an accurate weapon. You just shoot in the direction of the target ... We have no idea how many we killed. I hope no one."

Shaul said some acts "flow from being afraid or being bored. You are there eight hours a night at the post. You just aim and shoot the water tank."

Or, "when you drive your tank or your APC (armoured personnel carrier), you bump into a streetlight. As you turn a corner, you bump into a wall. It's fun ... It's all about you. Nothing else matters ... Palestinians are no longer human."

Initially, Break the Silence members did not speak to foreigners, to avoid "airing our dirty laundry." But they have since changed their policy.

Two members toured the United States last year. Two exhibitions have been held in Geneva and Amsterdam.

The group (www.shovrimshtika.org and www.breakthesilence.org.il) exists to break two kinds of silences: "First, the soldiers keep quiet and, then Israeli society keeps quiet.

"We provide the tools for people to understand the deeply woven moral corruption and numbness of what we do (in the Occupied Territories). It's like a slide; once you start going down, you keep going down.

"There's no such thing as a benign or an enlightened occupation. You can't be an occupier and not be an occupier."

Shaul's overall message:

"The issue is not the right of Israel to exist but rather, does it have the right to occupy Palestinian lands and control civilians as it has for 40 years?"

Shaul said he has been well-received in North America, even though some did criticize him.

But, "you can't really criticize me because I am an Israeli who has served in the army."

He's much more: a courageous citizen of Israeli democracy.

[StaggerLee]

That article is worlds better, thanks Hal.

[afro poppa]

Okay I read the article.

Basically, I still don't like it or agree with it.

The authour uses here say and "facts" to prove his point. He basically makes all these accusations and then doesn't back it up with any proof that it actually happened. For instance:

There seems to be little disagreement, even from many US sources, that the

Axis has violated international law and basic human decency by its violent

repression of civilian populations. Both the US and Israel have deemed it their

right to break in to any home in occupied territory that they wish in the search

for "the enemy."

He says this, which may or may not be true, and then doesn't give us any examples of when it happened. We are supposed to take his word for it.

I also don't like how he says basically "Oh don't worry, I am Jewish so I am allowed to say all these things. And if a JEWISH person doesn't like what Israel is doing then it MUST be wrong."

Look, I know I am coming across as wayyyy to pro-Israel but bottom line is that I am pro-Israel. However, I am much more pro-peace. I am not more pro-peace in any one direction. The article however, is quite one-dimensional. For instance:

Because of American propaganda, a little known fact is that Hezbollah is not

even considered to be a terrorist organization by most of the world! Indeed,

only the US and its puppet governments of Israel, Canada and Britain consider

Hezbollah as a terrorist organization! In fact, Hezbollah and Hamas have

exchanged prisoners many times with Israel who now has decided to use the

Hamas and Hezbollah "kidnappings" as their latest pretext to invade and

slaughter their neighbors.

He says "in fact" again without giving us any proof. It may be true that they have exchanged prisoners, but there is no way I am taking this guy's word for it. I can tell you for sure that hezbollah and hamas are extremely anti-semtitic and do not recognise Israel's right to exist (which does not mean Israel has the right to occupy their countries, like the article rightly says).

Oh and Hal, thanks for bringing that article to attention. It's a much easier read with less crap to filter through. I am almost sorry I even bothered to read that first one.

[AdamH]

The next article about Israeli soldiers protesting the actions of the state does indeed give more meat to what Joel may have been saying. His piece is an editorial so the presentation of facts is secondary to his analogy though if he had some better ones it might be more believable.

Strictly speaking you gotta hand it to Hitler for being a shrewd military strategist, and perhaps some the techniques used by Israel are in fact the same though you can't use Israel exclusively as an example. You'd look at the Iran/Iraq conflict, Serbs and Croats, Kosovo, Armenia and so on. So really were these strategies the sole property of the Nazis or is just that referncing Nazism is provocative enough to read this?

While not making apologies for or defending Israel's actions I think their strategy was at first largely reactionary and is now an offensive one due to lack of options to negotiate, inadequate and completely corrupted palestinian governance and nearly as many corruption scandals on the Israeli side. Pro-Israel camps contain Zionist threads about arabs being dirt, fostering a culture of terror and wanting only the destruction of Israel but the economic disparity of Palesitnians (whatever the cause) is what encourages that.

I don't think it's up to Israel to feed the Palestinian poor, it IS up to them to create options for self-sufficiency and to, where it's not a threat to their safety, stop fucking bombing things, people, farms, shops, power plants and essential services so that the majority of peace-loving and commerce-focused people can get on running shops and sending kids to school.

I ask hard questions about both sides of the coin here; is Israel still, 60 years on, acting in self-defence? What options would I have, as Israel's PM, knowing that there's a culture of hate against my citizens that comes from elements of our palestinian neighbours but even larger elements from all of the countries that surround us?

Remember also, and I'll put this as delicately as possible, there is a whole whack of crazies who have fucked everything up. Rabin and Arafat came very close in 1993, Rabin I think even formally recognized the PLO as a political party. Then an orthodox Jew killed him and presumably people who thought Arafat was a spineless traitor TRIED to kill him. Then there was Netanyahu who effectively reversed course on any negotiations. Then there was Barak, who with Arafat and Clinton again came close in 2000. According to Wikipedia that deal would've given them the majority of the West Bank and the gaza strip, partof East Jerusalem, and involved annexing 69 Israeli settlements that blocked major roads and throughways in the proposed palestinian state.

Arafat not only refused, he didn't even make a counter-offer. Members of his own party quit the PLO over it because why on earth wouldn't they take it?

Then Sharon was elected and confined Arafat like an animal to his own headquarters which, not coinicidentally, were intermittently bombed.

To say resolving this is not easy is a massive understatement. Everything you think you know always goes out the window. How could Sharon on one hand be tried for War Crimes for indirectly resulting in the deaths of thousands of refuges during the Shatila Massacre, be the same man who later evicted Jewish settlers from contested areas and began withdrawing troops from the Gaza strip? The same man whose son is charged with corruption? The same man who begain constructing a physical barrier between Israel and the West Bank?

I truly believe that Israel wants Peace but will only have it when security isn't a threat. I also believe Palestinians wan Peace but only when security isn't a threat. That doesn't move anyone any closer to Peace at the moment.

[Hal Johnson]

I truly believe that Israel wants Peace but will only have it when security isn't a threat. I also believe Palestinians wan Peace but only when security isn't a threat. That doesn't move anyone any closer to Peace at the moment.

Depressing, aint it?

[Biggest Fan]

One and a... good stuff. I only have an OPINION but I feel I understand why Israel acts the way it does but being in the position of POWER I'd love to see them be a little less hawkish. Much like the USA it seems like the controls are held by people in the farrrr right.

Not that I read the book but it seems as though Jimmy Carter would like to see Israel back off a bit.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Funny thing, rhetoric, and the way it obscures the way power operates. I caught an interesting debate on The Current last Wednesday between somebody from the Canada-Israel Committee and someone from the Israel Policy Forum. The latter (iirc) was frustrated that Canada's suspension of funds to the Palestinians for education around democracy-building initiatives (included under the blanket suspension of funds that Canada instituted immediately after the election) did nothing but damage to everyone involved in the situation, while the former insisted that freezing all funding was vital in the interests of stopping all support for terrorist organisations (viz., Hamas). Eventually, the first guy got frustrated and made the point that his opponent was throwing around "terrorist" like a trump card to win his point, and the only comeback the other one had was that moves like the Canadian government's, whatever their outcome, were essential in "sending the terrorists a clear message."

Now, isn't the use of power (overt or subtle kinds of violence), as a communicative tool, something essential to terrorism? In other words, don't people resort to terrorist tactics precisely when they can't find other ways to communicate their message to their antagonists?

[faoy]

afro poppa, thanks for reading it.

There have been some great replies. I’m trying to get a grasp of all the issues. It’s very complicated and it helps to hear different opinions and outlooks.

[Dr. J Fischer]

Hi All: I want to thank everybody for responding both to my article and to the responses to the article. I also want to especially thank my new best friend, Richard, for notifying me that the article had been posted, and then for helping me log on so that I can participate.

I realize I'm posting this message kinda late; the steam has gone out of the discussion. But I still want to add my mana`o to the thread.

I'm a professor at the University of Hawai`i, and like most otherwise inept professors, much of my energy is consumed by (reading and) writing (well, and 'rithmetic). A big chunk of my contribution to the social justice groups to which I belong is to write position papers, letters to the editor, and organize through various email venues. Sadly, most of my work in the past 6 horrifying years has been out of frustration at the terrors our government has been imposing on the world in my (our) name. So, the flow from what the US government has done seemed natural to writing about the similarities in what the Israelis are doing in the name of their people.

I was sickened by the invasion of Lebanon by the Israelis, and the destruction of such an immense part of Lebanon based on the pretext the Israelis offered (a pretext, the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier, that STILL has not been resolved; hence, some evidence that it was indeed a pretext). The flow that joined what the Israelis are doing with what the US governemnt is doing seemed like a natural progression; the connection to the Nazi-like TACTICS used by both countries (never did I say that the Israelis and the US were as evil as the Nazis; that argument is ridiculous) also seemed pretty natural; the tactics are, if not the same, pretty damn close to tactics the Nazis did use. In reading the responses, I could not find any that actually refuted that basic premise. (Stating that my article was too long to read or that I am an idiot, while possibly true, and you can ask my wife, are NOT refutations of my thesis.)

Some folks chastised me for using the term "fact" in regard to some of what I argued. I suppose that they would be correct if this were a scholarly piece published in a journal and I had omitted references to document my "facts." But this article was an op-ed piece written more than anything as catharsis for me, but still an op-ed piece. I cannot recall any op-ed piece that ever provided references to support its "facts," but then I am in my semi-dottage and forgetting such pieces does not mean they do not exist. However, what I cited as facts were facts indeed. No quotation marks necessary. They were facts because they are true -not opinions- and can be verified by any enterprising soul who doubts them.

And so my friends, while I have no clue how the article came to be posted on this site in the first place, I am very grateful that you have taken so much of your time reading or skimming the article and then being willing to post your remarks. I never mind being disagreed with or yelled at or being called any manner of names. After all, didn't I mention that I was married?

Aloha, joel

[faoy]

Thanks for writing Joel. I find it very interesting and very respectable that you would take the time to respond here. Thanks for replying and keep up the good work. Hope to read more from you soon.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

Yes indeed, thanks for the reply– unheard of!

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Indeed yes indeed. Thanks for not just putting your thoughts out there, but for also being around (welcome, btw ) to lend them further context and clarification. Dialogue always trumps monologue.

[Hal Johnson]

Wow. Thats too cool. Thanks Dr J!