Stephen Harper's Speech this afternoon.

[Birdy]

He's in fact refuting so many of the world's greatest philosophers who claim man is born into a certain state saying that their work and life dedication are wrong as this very conclusion is the result of a cultural upbringing.

I think.

Edited October 9, 2008 by Guest

[Thorgnor]

You're correct. I absolutely am refuting thousands of the world's most emminent minds.

Does that upset you so much?

These thinkers can say what they will, but we will have learned nothing from them if we blindly accept their words as fact or truth because they are venerated. The history of philosophy is not a series of people finding themselves as within something that had already existed like sheep, but instead the tale of the valorous few thinkers who questioned the currents of their day and proved to be correct, against common belief and trends. I may not be a visionary thinker or leader, and I may be as culturally conceited as any other human but I do feel that there is something fundamentaly wrong with the way that we live and the more that we insist on conserving traditions because they are tradition they mnore we stick to our filthy philosophical grounding. Binary thinking leaves only haves and have-nots, if that is our basis we must move beyond it no matter how much more complicated.

There is no more Divine Right.

[Birdy]

I totally agree; however, I don't think you or I or anyone will ever have an answer to the equation. Yours, like theirs is only a guess and is entirely subjective. You're not right, neither am I, neither are they. We all believe what we want in the end and there is nothing to move beyond because of it.

And no, doesn't upset me so much based on the above.

Edited October 9, 2008 by Guest

[Thorgnor]

Don't be so frustrated.

You can believe whatever alternative to society you want, but their batons will show you their truth in no time... I prefer to be hit by books and music if I have any say.

This type of cultural relativism isn't the extreme of moral relativism and it is not fatalism, it's far more profound.

We believe what we collectively agree is within the realm of the possible, and then the agency of the culturally conditioned mind understands and reacts to the new and everchanging context of the body it finds itself within. Part of all of those historical arguements is the unique character of humanity as opposed to nature... we are a result of nature, what we do is nature. The future is always new, unless we conserve the moments of the past that continue to frame our understandings in conventional ways.

I'm not looking to prove you wrong, I'm looking for a constructive stalemate.

Allow me one grace,

We can only prove what we share.

Or give up on debating the nature of man with me.

The nature of man is construct.

Edited October 9, 2008 by Guest

[Birdy]

I'm not frustrated at all.

I don't think there's a true way of telling what the nature of man at time of birth is or at least no way of measuring it to make it into fact. I wholeheartedly agree that our cultures shape us into the beings were are today, but I also wholeheartedly believe we are born good. You apparently don't... or don't believe we are born good or bad?? I don't know.

My argument for how to approach the today exists based on this second belief. That if man, left entirely up to his own demise will somehow take care of one another. This seems scary to some due to everything preceeding - war, famine, money, exploitation, tyranny, the list goes on. But it shouldn't be scary, because it is we as individuals who did this to each other and we as individuals who came together to fix it in the end. We are a forever evolving species and are constantly learning and striving to do better and to fix what is broken, yes, based on our cultural beliefs and proven throughout our entire history. I think this is pretty good grounds to assume that we are inherently good. It doesn't mean we won't do bad, we will, but we will learn from it.

Socialism in my eyes is a method to the madness for those who don't believe we can do it on our own. It's major fault is not realizing we have done it on our own. It implants a fear of the free-will of man that I find despicable and propels an unnatural progression of time itself. It aims to help those who cannot help themselves, but keeps them forever suspended in that same realm. It does not advance us but rather stifles us. It creates an unnatural fear of making things better based primarily on the false idea that man is corrupt. I cannot support it as a philosophy, but as an agent, I will, to varying degrees. It is a part of the equation, just as much as everything else is.

[Thorgnor]

I don't believe that we are born with a nature of good or bad... that is the trick of culture itself. Binaries again. We are born, we decide... good and bad are afterthought. We must speak of harnessing human intention and there we've got a debate. Socialism doesn't assume we're all out to get one another... that's McCarthyism.

[Thorgnor]

Don't take this the wrong way but it kinda seems like we both wanna paste this to each other right now...

Remember, I only hit you because I love you.

[phishtaper]

i especially have no idea what you two are talking about ...

[Thorgnor]

There's a Marxist-Leninist candidate in my riding... and a Heritage Party candidate too... aren't they libertarian?

[Birdy]

Not so much... aren't they Christian?

I just checked out their website, aside from defending rights, they're pretty not-so-much libertarian... pro lifers, defend marriages, prevent euthanasia, the list goes on. Not so much.

hahaha

I think we'd probably disagree on how to harness human intention anyway. I think human intention pretty much harnesses itself.

[Thorgnor]

You may feel that a garage is the best place to find new rocket fuel, that's ok. I feel that we're probably better off investing in education for rocket scientists, but I suppose those who already have the means will solve all of our problems without any dough to back them up out of the goodness of their hearts, like plantation owners (I wouldn't want to characterize the rich as having more opportunities?!?!?). You know, the best solution is probably to give a tax break to a chef who will use the money to create a new type of biodiesel in his garage... really.

It happens all the time.

ps. I'm New Orleans

Edited October 10, 2008 by Guest
I didn't mean the finger I meant the score.. erps.

[Birdy]

Yah, i totally agree.

Precisely why I'm voting Conservative.

Nice work, yet again, on the plantation owners comment.

[Birdy]

Thing about us is that we only move as fast as the whole.

[Thorgnor]

Did you just call me a hole?

Edited October 10, 2008 by Guest
wasn't there slavery in Canada?

[Birdy]

Paranoid?

[Thorgnor]

You act as if the party you back isn't guilty of vicious things, and that because they incorporate an even more radical element that they somehow have mellowed. Which party has cosistently restrained immigration? Which party consistently votes in favor of militarism? Which party has espoused a boot-strap economics that pa=ertains at best to a homogenous eighteenth-century England?

Yeah, I'm paranoid that a vote for the conservatives will leave the future a desolate place for me. Party away while people are compelled to party your way or be imprisoned... very "Liberal"... nothing like advocating the inprisonment of thousands based on sound economics... I'm done... this is retarded.

[Birdy]

Didn't I already say that everyone is guilty of viscious things? If you wanna go there, which apparently you do, there's a whole whack load of nastier than nasty things socialism has done in this world. A whole whack load.

So yeah, i'm a bit paranoid too a vote for the NDP would leave us all in utter ruins while people are denied an individual voice and instead must nod their heads with the majority.

Funny you say 'nothing like advocating the inprisonment of thousands based on sound economics'. I feel the same way about the left.

I guess though the difference between you and I goes back to me believing we're good. If you think honestly and truly that a vote for the conservatives is going to lead to people being imprisoned, than i'm done too. This is retarded. I won't subscribe to that level of paranoia.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Guest

[Thorgnor]

http://www.prisonjustice.ca/politics/facts_stats.html

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/061011/d061011a.htm -

"Conditional sentences for drug offences receive longest supervision orders

Conditional sentence admissions for drug offences received the longest conditional sentence orders in 2004/2005, according to data from five provinces: Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

More than one-third (36%) of all conditional sentence admissions for drug offences carried a conditional sentence term of 18 months or more. This was roughly twice the proportion of those admitted for a violent offence (18%) or property offence (15%)."

http://www.gdsourcing.ca/works/faqwomen.html

Somehow I think your fear of the CANADIAN LEFT is unfounded! Do you see Jack Layton ordering Canadian troops to surpress free-market protests on Queen's park?

Do you work for the CPC?

[Birdy]

Please tell me this isn't the approach you take to all those who claim to vote for the CP.

Honestly, i don't think if we continue this is going to go anywhere pretty, anytime soon. I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me. Debate is fun, and we should leave it at that. You're a nice, intelligent person and it's been entertaining... but i have no desire to get in some kind of online fight, so i'm tossing in the towel. Differences of opinion make the world go round or in the least, make things a little more interesting. I'd say without them we wouldn't be where we are today. I'm super tired and got a long day tomorrow so adios!

I really liked the Ely pic though. A++ for that.

[d_rawk]

You both are way more concerned about the consequences of this election than I can ever imagine being! Good show

[SaggyBalls]

To not help when it's within our means, sights, and best interests is entirely ignorant of the potential of man, our affiliations, and our organizational ability.

Call it socialism if you will, but I call it funding and support.

As the Government is the centralization of wealth in this nation, innovation and direction cannot be left solely to the discretion of the Private Sector.

There must be some way to bridge both polarized perspectives to come together and make a big fuzzy profit to alleviate our need for taxing citizens' incomes and purchases to compensate for tax evasion and creative accounting.

Thanks for the reading material either way.

[Birdy]

I hear you...

I said I support socialist ideas to "varying degrees", just like I support the private sector to a varying degree.

The CP is not leaving innovation or direction solely to the private sector at all. I thought their platform was pretty moderate myself.

[SaggyBalls]

They're definitely moderate.

Anything else...

...Wouldn't be prudent.