Ontario College Strike

[Kanada Kev]

Side note: fwiw, my family members that teach in and around Toronto bitch WAY more They may have more to complain about there as I'm not sure of their workload differences from SW Ontario.

Schwa. from what I know the Toronto District School Board is a mess. It is not well run and in a financial mess (not only from gov't legislation, but inept management and infrastructure too).

There are a lot of issues that the TDSB has to deal with and without support, single teachers in classrooms that still exceed ratios are fucked. Other boards have their unique problems too, but I do know that some are much more desirable to work in based on how they are run. Pay scales are different in each one too. Weird.

This is something that needs to be addressed and I hope it happens sometime. Why is it that the province has 72 district school boards? That doesn't count the Catholic Boards either. Talk about red tape and bureaucracy. Shouldn't all publically funded schools fall under the same umbrella? Streamlining would with efficiency.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I'm more in favour of the Judge Roy Bean approach to management.

[Schwa.]

"Please birdy ... take some time off and come volunteer in my wife's classroom for a week. Then report back and tell me there's no stress."

I knew something was amiss

I hope I didn't steer this too far from the College Teachers arena.

San Dimas High School football rules!!!

Another side note: if it's so easy for you to say (Kev) that we the non-informed should take up the trade and become teachers, isn't it actually less work for your wife to just quit if it's so bad? or perhaps just find herself a desirable School Board to work for? I for one think this debate has been done to death.

I'm with Dr. Evil.

[Esau.]

Why not have binding legislation that states that a labour arbitrator is IMMEDIATELY assigned to force a deal to made if the two sides can't mutually agree by a deadline? This would ensure that action is taken and no need for any work stoppage or missed classes.

You know, I've always wondered why they don't have a labour arbitrator.

My union (IBEW L.U 105) has one (since 1991 anyway) and while my workers bitch and moan about contracts and what not, it's obvious we would rather have the work, especially in these times. Every couple years we [union] have a vote to keep or do away with the arbitrator. So far, our last strike was 1990, before then we pretty much striked every contract.

Anyway, as a union member, I support them.

[Birdy]

Striking isn't quitting, Kev. I don't want to quit. And I don't hate my job. But if i could strike to force our board of directors to give me what I want, and to realize all of the bullshit I have to deal with, that would be great! Job security, ya know? If i walked off the job today in protest of something I thought was unfair, I probably wouldn't have a job tomorrow. Unfortunately with no union, I don't have that option. So, I suck it up, bring it up on a yearly basis in a polite manner, hope for the best and carry on.

And for what it's worth, I didn't say there's no stress related to the teaching profession. I merely commented on what I'm exposed to with my roommate and mom, report card season, and putting in the extra three hours a night to get it all done. When I examine my own job, working till midnight, sometimes waking up in the middle of the night stressing that i forgot/needed to do something, having my phone ring 24/7 and come in to work to 250 new emails for the day, bosses yelling, clients demanding, i think i'd much rather be in my roomates or moms shoes.

And, I'm sure Schwa can stick up for himself, but i wholeheartedly agree that teachers DO seem to bitch more than other professions. Might be shocking, but i have been in a room with other groups of people in a similar profession to allow me to make that comparison.

[Schwa.]

Birdy got my back!!!

[Birdy]

Damn straight, bro!

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

fwiw, I don't know if anybody's got a monopoly on bitching about their jobs. Teachers probably just get more press with theirs.

As for the working-all-hours thing, my own experience is that I'm rarely off the clock. I wake up, I deal with student emails, and I'm at that, along with planning, marking, yadayadayada, while I'm lying in bed and finally shut down the laptop before shut-eye. And I like it. My biggest fear/anxiety is falling behind because there's just too much to do, because then I'm screwed. The charitable part of me thinks that this is what this strike vote is at least partly concerned with.

[AD]

yes, i know this isn't about High School teachers but the situation is the exact same.

Aren't many college teachers paid by the course, like sessionals? There are many many reasons why it's definitely NOT the exact same.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I don't know about the "many" - depends if you're talking about part-time, partial-load, or full-time.

[Birdy]

And that's cool, DEM.

I guess where the lack of sympathy lies is that some folks don't have the option to walk off the job, demand better circumstances, and come back the next day with a pay increase. That, and don't have the opportunity to PR the shit out of their stress levels to suit their cause.

[Schwa.]

Undoubtedly right about the press part, Dave. I have no personal vendetta, I hope ya'll see that. I sympathize with most of their issues and think that the permanent arbitrator is one of, if not the only real option to prevent future shit like this but I also can't help but think that they go about it with the typical, and i'm generalizing, mentality of entitlement which I think is what pisses most of us commoners off. No one really knows what a job is about until they do it.

Someone prorogue the Maple Leafs already.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

)

From where I sit, it's less about the faculty per se; there's a lot of disappointment with the union, though, and how they handled it - playing into the stereotypical antagonisms, rather than actually trying to get into some practical dialogue and negotiations. That isn't to excuse the BS that the colleges' collective has been pumping out, but frankly, I do wish we had better representation.

[And, I should add, I might step up to the plate some day, but given that I'm on probation for the next year and change as a new full-timer, and could be fired for any reason whatsoever, I have to lay low for that time...]

Edited January 14, 2010 by Guest

[Esau.]

I guess where the lack of sympathy lies is that some folks don't have the option to walk off the job, demand better circumstances, and come back the next day with a pay increase.

I have many friends who say the exact same thing Birdy, but what gets me is they will (sometimes within the same breath) slam and put down unions, saying they would never allow themselves to be part of one citing many reason why they are bad.

No offense meant, I know that wasn't what you were doing, just your comment reminded me of all that and it's something I've never understood.

I guess it's kinda off-topic though.

[Birdy]

No worries, Esau.

Not saying that in this case, but it is something I kinda think from time to time. The one thing that I've heard in the past from union-members and that really doesn't sit well with me is the bullying for votes that goes down. My mom tells me all the time about people saying to her 'you better vote yes'... and then being afraid to say she voted no. That, and if you really wholeheartedly don't believe in the strike, you can't do anything about it. That kinda irks me. Being forced to participate in something you don't agree with. I guess i'm way too much of an opinionated beeyatch to keep my mouth shut in those circumstances. But it's not really fair... or progressive.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Is there really that much "forcing" going on, though? I mean, it's badgering, but I wouldn't call it inescapably coercive.

[Esau.]

I hear what your saying Birdy, and of course there are many differences in the types of unions out there. For example, a North American trade union vs an industry union (like Stelco was). In my trade I've never heard of bullying for votes, even from my father who was a union man for 35 years, so I grew up with the strikes & politics (of mine anyway), but I've heard of it happening in places like Steel mills.

As mentioned above, my union voted to have a permanent arbitrator back in the 1991, and have done so every year since. It just came down to the fact guys would rather be working then striking, but at the same time wanted fair benefits, pay/hours for the work, risk/stress & cost of living at the current time.

I think a lot of distaste for unions comes from their history when they were quite different then they are now (for the most part), and with that all of them get painted the same.

I wouldn't say they are all good and play fair, but at the same time I don't always understand the resentment from people who have never worked in one but yet say, in so many words, they don't have the luxury of striking, demanding more money or a safer work environment from their employers, but would if they could.

[Birdy]

I'm sure it does boil down to the particular union, Esau, and i'm sorry for being so quick to judge them all together. I guess it's what a person is exposed to, and down in these parts its primarily the teachers unions and the UAW that get all the air time. I've listened to guys who got paid $40/hr tell stories about working for an hour, meeting quota and then sitting around playing euchre for the other 7. Or rolling on out after than hour, coming back after the 7 and punching out. It's this kinda thing, and the recent demise/decline of industry that puts a bad taste in one's mouth. I've always wondered if we didn't overpay (yes, i think $40/hr for these factory jobs was overpaying) our factory jobs, would our industry have been so desperate to look to Asia/Mexico/etc for cheaper labour in the first place? I don't know...

I'm all for safe work places and appropriate compensation, but I think in a lot of cases that I've been exposed to, what's deemed 'appropriate compensation' has been drastically exaggerated. In comparison to similar jobs in non-unionized work places.

[Esau.]

No reason to apologize. I know exactly what your talking about there. I've worked in (not for) a couple car plants over the years (Ford - Toronto, Honda - Alliston) and seen that shit first hand, as well know folks who work at them and have told me the same stories. I can understand peoples frustration, especially with so many plants are laying off, producing out of country or outright shutting down.

Sorry for the hijack DEM.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

) - same story, different setting.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Sigh...

Ontario College Instructors Union Rejects Offer

Ontario's 200,000 college students may soon face picket lines after union negotiators for the province's community college faculty turned down the latest offer from their employer.

The bargaining team for the 24 colleges was "disappointed" to report the news, said a bulletin posted online and dated Jan. 27.

The team from the College Compensation and Appointments Council is asking the union to hold a faculty vote on the what it called its "final" offer.

The Ontario Public Service Employees Union represents 9,000 college instructors, counsellors and librarians, who voted 57 per cent in favour of a strike earlier in January.

The colleges said the offer was issued Wednesday after several days of bargaining and includes:

* Reduction of the contract length from four years to three.

* A 5.9 per cent salary increase over three years.

* A new maximum salary cap of $102,186, up $5,650 from the previous contract.

* Withdrawal of contentious proposals about retiree life insurance options, probation and sick leave.

However, Rod Bain, a member of the union bargaining team, said the offer failed to address many of the workload issues important to faculty or issues of academic freedom.

Bain said the union will decide its next steps Saturday, including whether to take the offer to a vote. However, bargaining will continue in the meantime. He added that the colleges have the option to put their offer to a union vote themselves if they choose to do so.

"They're latest move is really just a ploy, an attempt to bargain outside of actual bargaining — doing it through the media, essentially," he said, adding that the colleges have been calling every offer their "final" offer.

Hope for a vote

On Thursday, Bill Tennant, a professor of business at St. Lawrence College in Kingston, said he hopes the union will let its members vote on the deal.

"I'd accept it in a heartbeat," he added.

He believes it's a good deal given the province's huge deficit and the fact that many of its colleges are struggling financially.

The union held a strike vote Jan. 13, a month after talks broke down between the two sides, following five months of bargaining.

For the union, key issues are workload, academic freedom and management's decision in November to impose its offer on the teachers without a vote.

The union wants a 2.5 per cent pay increase in each year of a three-year contract.

I wouldn't mind having a vote that counted either.

[phishtaper]

who calls for the vote makes a big difference. the employer is allowed to force a vote, but only once during negotiations. that's what happened at mcmaster back in the fall, and it backfired on the university because the vote rejected the offer, forcing the university back to the table and weakening its position which led to a settlement. i sense that opseu is waiting for the colleges to take the same step and force the vote.

that said though, it never ceases to amaze and frustrate me that union, management and worker perspectives on what the results of any given vote actually mean are so vastly different. does 57% strike mandate mean, "go for it at any cost and don't bother to consult us until you are satisfied"? that seems to be the way the union is interpreting it. this, despite the fact that the vote was couched in terms of forcing the colleges back to the table.

add to this the rather extraordinary threat from opseu to members that in the event of a strike, unions dues for those employees who choose to legally cross the picket line will be increased to 100% of their salaries. perhaps opseu didnt catch the supreme court of canada's ruling last year that doing that is illegal.

[SaggyBalls]

haha not uninformed PT. nothing i said in the above is uninformed, it's all first hand knowledge.

While it is first hand knowledge, one thing to remember is the position from which it's viewed : non-teacher and comparing that to other unions.

I've always wondered if we didn't overpay (yes, i think $40/hr for these factory jobs was overpaying) our factory jobs, would our industry have been so desperate to look to Asia/Mexico/etc for cheaper labour in the first place? I don't know...

work places.

That's one approach to the issue, but another way to look at the problem is that these foreign workers are grossly UNDERPAYED for their time, partly because their economy allows for it, but partly because their economies are made to allow for that.

As this continues, it's only a matter of time before we start outsourcing our teachers as we are the healthcare market.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Hands up everyone who feels him/herself qualified to decide (with or without "market information") just how much money someone else's time and effort is worth!

hahem...

In this case, I have to wonder whether it's not as some people have suggested: long-standing personal feuds between people on either side of the conflict.

Ontario Colleges Urge Union to Let Faculty Vote on the Offer

Ontario's 24 colleges have issued a fresh appeal to the Ontario Public Service Employees Union to let faculty vote on a final contract offer.

The new appeal comes a day after OPSEU said it would not take the offer it rejected directly to the 9,000 teachers.

Ontario's College Compensation and Appointments Council made the offer to OPSEU on Wednesday after several days of talks.

Dr. Rachael Donovan, chairman of the colleges' bargaining team, says the offer includes a salary increase of 5.9 per cent, which would raise the top salary to more than $102,000 by September 2011.

In addition, says Ms. Donovan, workload protections contained in the last collective agreement would remain intact.

A strike would affect at least 200,000 full-time students across Ontario.

[Birdy]

+$40/hr is over-paying for a game of euchre. I feel pretty confident in that.

We've grossly over-payed, they grossly under pay, and here we are today.