Drugs (no music)

[shitidiot]

Should all drugs be legal? this way it can be controlled, like alcohol and tabacco. or should it stay the way it is and we put drug user in jail with rapist and murderers. i'm all for legalization, education and control. like to see what every one thinks.

[Esau]

I'm for decriminalization long before any legalization talks start,so people can be educated porperly and not only the drug or non-drug users will need to be educated but the federal,provincial,local goverments and law enforcement in order to be able to understand/deal/tax/work with it etc etc and have it work smoothly since if it is legalized we'll be flooded with some really sketchy people from other countries coming to purely take advantage of it.

I don't see it occuring in my lifetime,perhaps decriminalization but not legalization.

[shitidiot]

i agre with you easu that deciminalization should come frist. but if you take the criminal element(trafficking of drugs) out, you could wipe out organized crime. then you can concentrate government money on education or fighting things like child porn and corporate fraud.

[bradm]

First, define "legal". Is alcohol legal? It isn't if you're under 19 in Ontario, and it isn't legal to buy alcohol if you're visibly intoxicated. Is cocaine legal? It is if it's given to you on by a physician (cocaine is often used as a local anasthetic for nose surgery).

My big concern with legalizing all drugs is that there are drugs that can kill you (e.g., heroin) or addict you (e.g., crack cocaine) with one use, and that's a pretty fine line. In other words, each drug needs to have its legality handled individually; I see nothing inherently inconsistent with having some drugs legal and some illegal.

Should Canada be continually looking at its drug policies as new information becomes available and/or societal standards change? Definitely. Should Canada adopt a "legalize everything" policy? Definitely not.

Aloha,

Brad

[shitidiot]

My big concern with legalizing all drugs is that there are drugs that can kill you (e.g., heroin) or addict you (e.g., crack cocaine) with one use

well alcohol can kill with one use. why is there a double standard? alcohol kills more than all the hard drugs put together. there is a very slim/next to no chance that you will die your frist time out on coke or H.

[Esau]

i agre with you easu that deciminalization should come frist. but if you take the criminal element(trafficking of drugs) out, you could wipe out organized crime. then you can concentrate government money on education or fighting things like child porn and corporate fraud.

Although,with complete legalization wouldn't there just be a bigger rise in export trafficing to other countries?Mainly the USA? In turn meaning more money spent on paying more border control or airport to police this.Organized crime would just move their business to exporting in my opinion.Just like prohibition,Canada supplied alcohol via bootleg exporters to the USA,I would bet it wouldn't be different with drugs.

If the Canadian gov't were to worry more about fighting things like child porn and coporate fraud now and stop wasting so much of the tax dollars on useless court cases where people with sickness's or even healthy peoples simple possesion of marijuana across Canada I bet there would be more $$ to sink into fighting the real issues with better results,instead our court systems get overloaded with useless cases of marijuana possesion causing real criminals crafty lawyers to be able to plea the case to nothing or even get them off due to the length they have to await for their trial due,which has happened alot in this country.Sadly.

[bradm]

My big concern with legalizing all drugs is that there are drugs that can kill you (e.g., heroin) or addict you (e.g., crack cocaine) with one use

well alcohol can kill with one use. why is there a double standard?

What double standard? Each drug is handled separately by the law, and "legality" is not black or white. The first part of my post demonstrates that a drug's legality (or the legality of its use) varies from drug to drug and situation to situation. That's not a "double standard", that's the law recognizing differences between things.

And remember, saying that "alcohol can kill you, too" isn't an argument for legalizing other drugs, it's an argument for making alcohol illegal. You didn't refute my point, you reinforced it.

alcohol kills more than all the hard drugs put together.

Huh? Tell that to the Vancouver police, who are (or were) getting one heroin overdose death per day. How many deaths due to alcohol were they getting per day?

Now, if you include deaths in automobile accidents where alcohol was a factor, the numbers do indeed go up (but I doubt to one death/day), but again, that's an illegal use of alcohol. (Remember, while alcohol may be "legal", there are situations where its use is completely illegal.)

there is a very slim/next to no chance that you will die your frist time out on coke or H.

Tell that to Len Bias's family.

Aloha,

Brad

[paisley]

totally against government interference in drugs... as Garcia said when Janis Joplin overdosed, if she could've gone to the drug store she would've known the strength of the drug she was doing... the black market is unpredictable and motivated by profit, not quality... people always have and always will use drugs... the nederlands hasn't turned into hell because of relaxed drug laws, herion users can teach university there and basically live outside of the closet, instead of dying in it... if you have friends or family who're being destructive with drugs its far better you know about it so it can be openly discussed than they hide they're habits because they're "bad" or illegal... coffee and alcohol are very harsh drugs on the human body so why is it only drugs that have a profound affect on the mind that are illegal? if you had all drugs to choose from I'm sure the majority of people would find something more productive and healthy than crack, and if they didn't I'd rather see someone I love treated with respect than forced to hide

the less of a big deal drugs are the less kids would show off by doing them... when I was a teenager drugs curbed my suicidal tendancies and re-awoke my creativeness after the lithium and other prescriped drugs had failed (and depressed me more)... not saying they're for everyone but for some people there is merit... people end up taking more drugs than they would in a free society due to a need to stay closely associated with the black market so they can get drugs when they actually do want them... a large portion of our classic authors used opiates, (real) absinthe and cocaine and were considered the great thinkers of their time... is every single person in afghanistan a junkie? no, in fact most people with employment there aren't because they understand the drug and respect it... nowadays I run into kids straight out of high school who say they started using it in grade 10... they use it because its illegal and they want to get high, and if you don't know the difference H is the same as pot if you're desperate to slow down the overwhelming thoughts of adolesence

I could write a book, and probably should

[Esau]

the nederlands hasn't turned into hell because of relaxed drug laws, herion users can teach university there and basically live outside of the closet, instead of dying in it

LOL

Its not as pretty there as its made out to be,its great there but not that easy going man.

Maybe not hell,but it ain't all that pretty in places,the canals and alot of streets (in areas) were ridddled with used needles and condoms big problesm with STDs,Aids,addiction etc.People are relaxed about marijuana and hash's perhaps but not hard drugs.

I was there in 97 and I read about herion ODs all the time,almost daily it seemed.Herion is very much illegal there and not at all torlerated by most people especially the law.Neither is exporting,which has become a large issue with many other european countries like France,UK,Belgium etc all of who are strongley opposed to the relaxed drug laws citing the number of arrests that occur with people smuggling drugs into their country directly from NL.Alot of the coffee shops have already closed since I was there,since 95 or so they have decreased to less then 50% of what there was,Amsterdam alone has a bylaw stating once a shop closes it cannot reopen.

Its not so easy flowing over there as it seems,we have less problems from my understanding.

totally against government interference in drugs

Who do you think regulates the way the herb is tolerated/sold/grown and made available in Holland?

Sorry man,I just disagree with ya.Not trying to argue.

[StoneMtn]

This matter should not be a legal issue. This is truly a health issue. I am entirely in favour of complete legalization, essentially on civil-libertarian grounds. (Of course, being dealt with as a health issue, there would have to be considerable education, but also economic considerations such as taxing drugs based on their clinically, objectively proven detrimental effects on health, and apply those monies to provincial health coffers, to offset the harm done by those drugs.)

[bradm]

totally against government interference in drugs... as Garcia said when Janis Joplin overdosed, if she could've gone to the drug store she would've known the strength of the drug she was doing...

Do you see a contradiction here? I do: you want no government interference in drugs, but demand known strengths of drugs. Who's going to enforce the strength (and purity, quality, claims, etc.) of drugs if not the government?

You know all that stuff you read on food labels? The ingredients (and the order they're listed), the nutritional content, slogans such as "high in fibre" or "low in fat", all that stuff is regulated by the government. (Do you know why beer in Ontario doesn't have to list ingredients? It's because the beer companies have steadfastly influenced the government away from enforcing laws requiring ingredients on beer labels.)

Aloha,

Brad

[boogieknight]

i think if drugs were totally legal there wouldn't be the stigmatism attached to them and therefore maybe a honest and open system would be created. essentially governments have made states of conscienceness illegal and by criminalizing the choice to alter your conscienceness, you get all the other problems, crime, addiction, gangs, violence and all the other terrible things that come with the illegal drug trade. i'm not saying that these things won't happen if drugs were legal, but they would happen alot less. I do believe that in our current world systems drugs will never be legal and we'll be lucky if any are decrimalized. Keeping drugs illegal, keeps the real world powers very rich. The war on drugs is really the war to control drugs. Think of all the money that gets spent on fighting drugs. the bureaucracy is addicted to this money and by limiting a free market supply (keeping drugs illegal) you can increase demand and profits. Drugs have always be used as a method to profit and control by the imperial systems.(opium wars). And with the USA being the current imperial leader, with a total domination of the south american cocaine trade, the opium golden triangle in afghanistan and asia, not to mention world wide pharmaceutical production, illegal drugs are here to stay. at least in this current world order

[paisley]

no troubles at all Esau... wasn't saying that the netherlands was a utopia, just saying that society didn't grind to a halt... if there's only one place in the world people can party any way they want to of course its going to get sketchy

if young people learned about drugs from the elders of society more like back in tribal times when the witch doctor gave you something to help with your anxiety but warned you how to be careful I think things would be better off... the only regrets I have to my drug use are the desperate and sometimes abusive methods I went through trying to find a comfortable working model for myself brought on by using whatever the bikers and mafia happened to be selling and having to learn most of the ins and outs through trial and error

[paisley]

Do you see a contradiction here? I do: you want no government interference in drugs, but demand known strengths of drugs. Who's going to enforce the strength (and purity, quality, claims, etc.) of drugs if not the government?

agreed, ideally I'd like to see people who take pride in producing good drugs that are then tested to ensure things are what they say they are... a tylenol 3 is usually pretty much a tylenol 3

much the same as I'd like to see people who work in law being deeply concerned with being just and helpful

money (the fictional entity the western world believes in more than god) corrupts and should have nothing to do with such ethically sensitive elements of society

[Esau]

... if there's only one place in the world people can party any way they want to of course its going to get sketchy

Certianly can't just do what you want there,hence why the locals in Amsterdam (for example) have a distain at times for the tourists,since it seems alot figure thats how it is,when it not.

if young people learned about drugs from the elders of society more like back in tribal times when the witch doctor gave you something to help with your anxiety but warned you how to be careful I think things would be better off...

My first post sorta agrees with what your saying about education,but the gov't also has a hand in education in turn a hand in the drugs,since there would have to be a standard to follow or else each time you wouldn't be getting either a fair dose or a safe dose.

the only regrets I have to my drug use are the desperate and sometimes abusive methods I went through trying to find a comfortable working model for myself brought on by using whatever the bikers and mafia happened to be selling

No different today really.

Anyway,my views are just of what I see to be the "reality" of this topic/situation,not nessacarily(sp?) what I would like to see or want.Sure,I'd love legalization,but only if it was to work,which I feel (to tell the truth) it just wouldn't right now in this country.

I like to deal with "what is" at the current moment and see how we could ease the stress on the system by easing the marijauna laws since those are what are really clogging our courts & jails up with and for the most part is completely unessacary.

You have to stand before you can run.

[paisley]

definately same as it was, still illegal, only difference I'm seeing is younger kids into harder drugs as well as having less appreciation for "lighter" drugs like organic psychedelics... the main drug educators in our society are the dealers or distributers (some of whom fortunately do actually care)

it amazes me that you can go to a health food store and buy steroids, see a quack doctor and get crazy anti-depressents, but you can't grow what you want in your own backyard to self medicate yourself... self medication should be a fundamental right and none of the government's business

if you can eat chocolate, you should be able to make a tea that stimulates you, or relaxes you... if these plants exist on my planet I should be able to use them if its not for hurting anyone else and helping me be who I want to be (healthy and well)

I can't believe I ever smoked herb (let alone bottle tokes, knives, aluminum foil screens, etc.) instead of using a vaporizer... what a profound difference health-wise... there should be a nationwide push to encourage vaporisers for cannabis users

[SaggyBalls]

This is a totally strange situation as far as the topic's 'touchiness' - one one hand there's a strange social situation with narcotics in North America...people taking dugs recreationally against the law versus medicinally - legal for the most part. I don't think the reasons for taking these substances are petty enough to not realize that it's like comparing apples to oranges. still fruit, but not at all the same.

I think that people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't harm anybody other than themselves. face it...heroin isn't good for anybody.

Here's my answer: drug school. If you want to be able to take part in the recreational aspects of drugs you should have to be educated in them. this would require training on mixing drugs, testing drugs, what drugs do to your body's chemistry and how they affect you. You'd learn how to deal with good and bad times more effectively, as well as the dangers of 'boosting' methods. There would have to be hands on training and there would have to be an initial fee with a license renewal. this way the local drug services would have more clout and funding from the government. It would also take responsibility away from the government - the place people turn to blame when things go wrong.

I'd pay money to not get in trouble for posession or usage charges. it'd be like a watercraft license or a hunting and fishing or firearms license. if you have to take a course because guns can kill people you should have to take a course because drugs can kill people. as much as it's probably not as affordable as you'd like it to be I think it's a fairly smart idea. you'd be prepared for almost anything that lay ahead.

I'm a believer that the government shouldn't get in and regulate peoples' lives but should be there to take care of people that need to be taken care of. if you can't learn what the curriculum holds, you shouldn't be allowed to take these drugs. if you can't pay attention for your own health and the health of those around you, and take it seriously then you shouldn't be able to have the priveledge. if a flunkey gets caught there would be less leeway, or an increased fine or added charge. like driving without a license. you pay attention when you learn how to drive. this is just another way to get around.

I second the vapourizer advocacy. It should be able to be written off for taxes as a medical expenditure. All it needs is a government stamp as a class 1 medical device and you're set.

self medication should be a fundamental right, as long as the medication is harmless. I don't believe that you should be able to make your own heroin without a license if my idea ever gets picked up...although the way things are, i'd grow my own poppies for myself. opium is different than heroin as far as potency is concerned.

[snarfmaster C]

i was really pissed off to find that a couple of years ago the government strongly encouraged herb stores to pull certain herbs from their shelves. i went all over ottawa searching for herbs that work really well for me - sure they're deadly if you don't know what you're doing, but they're also very powerful if used well. why aren't these herbs available in an over-the-counter kind of deal for those of us who can demonstrate a working knowledge?

you can't have a lifeguard at every stretch of river in this country, or a 'watch your step' sign at every freaking hummock. why does the government think that they need to intervene when the human threat is internal?

who drew the arbitrary line in the toxicity level that is acceptable? why is there no line drawn in personal stress levels and aggression when considering candidates for drivers licences? ....you know what i'm sayin? messed up.

this is an issue of HEALTH not just of getting high for kicks.... why is the government even considering covering pricey pharmaceuticals that often only deal with symptoms, while natural remedies are being made even less accessible??? i don't want your antibiotics, dammit, i want my herbs ::

[AdamH]

Man, it's tough to take side on something so complex and somehow personal to each, either for good or for bad perhaps.

I'm distrustful of the government being involved. I don't ever want a criminal record for smoking a joint. I want those who are sick to have access to whatever medication makes them feel well.

I think the use of most drugs affects the user and not others. On the other hand I can appreciate that someone who is heavily into drugs, no matter how benign, can't always see that yes their drug use is affecting other people. After all, smoking some pot isn't harming others when you're high and can't see that, emotionally, maybe it is?

I know I'm not beeing very clear but that's because this is by no means a clear cut yes or no question. I would favour decriminalization of Marijuana but that's about it as far as my confidence level of other drugs is concerned. I can't favour legalization because I can't buy into this hype that organized crime will somehow disappear if we did so?! Did organized crime somehow legitimize or dry up when prohibition was repealed? Did Bugsy Siegel or any of the big timers decide to hang up the top hat and tails?

[SaggyBalls]

i think this debate was specifically about narcotics...not comparing certain legal substances to narcotics.

where do people stand on DRUGS?? come on...where are all those 'if i ever saw hard drugs at a party' people??

hmmm??

somebody step up here!

[paisley]

I was talking about all drugs, all the way through

its your mind, if you can freely drink a dozen beers you should be able to freely smoke an opiate... different people have different physiologies and therefore require different things to relax etc... people can get hooked or killed from the first time they drive a car and a car pollutes the environment for all of us... native americans get grossly addicted to alcohol and deal with it very poorly physically yet alcohol is simple to purchase for anyone... I honestly believe that once the hype dropped down over the initial change that there would be far less drug abuse as people became educated and experienced in their use...

an interesting thing I read on the Carlos Costenada site I posted the other day was Don Juan saying during a speach that people can not meditate properly within a city, and this leads to a lot of drug abuse... like monkeys in the wild don't masturbate until they're kept in captivity... people who live in cities, away from the natural planet, should be allowed whatever drugs particularly allow them as an individual to cope

the next generations are going to be full of new designer (and un-natural and unhealthy) drugs like meth and crack as people find chemical routes around the law and cost of production/distribution... the only way to curb that nightmare is to reduce the need by allowing access to natural drugs across the board... people need to be allowed to find their own personal limits... compulisive behavior is the real route of the problem with drugs and can manifest itself in drinking, sex, gambling as well as drugs... would you rather have the people next door chilled on opiates or screaming at each other loaded... if drugs were affordable there would be little harm involved in their use... you can knock yourself out sniffing gas or industrial glue, doesn't mean you see someone lying in the gutter of every street

just thinking out loud in all this, have thought a lot about it... the funny thing is I use drugs the least at this point in my life, only smoke herb about once or twice every 2 weeks and then the occasional pyschedelic or line or something monthly... the more I surf the web and travel, the more I run into people who seem to share my thoughts and lifestyle

to me the real problem comes from being the one of the first countries to become this way... relax the laws and suddenly every junkie everywhere wants to move to your country... I guess if you become like the Dutch you have to go all the way and take on their system of having everyone have a job, etc.

[shitidiot]

Drugs, i love them.

[Esau]

I love em too.

I just tend to not over think the topic and look at it from an direct view,I'm not sure how this became a thread about personal choice,instead of legality but it has...

Have fun.

[shitidiot]

I just tend to not over think

i just tend to not think

[MarcO]

ok, here's my take on DRUGS, just my perspective:

The world would be a much better place if more people smoked some pot and had at least one psychedelic experience in their lifetime (with proper set & setting, guidance, etc.).

The world would further be a much better place if people could stay away from harder drugs.