Michael Moore's Newest Letter

[Steve from Cleveland]

Steve,

I know the politics are very different between Ohio and Vermont, but I still can't wrap my head around the reason for any sentient being to have supported this miserable failure of a human being.

Believe it or not, I am NOT the only one who voted for Bush. If I had been, Kerry'd be the president right now. Almost 50 million sentient beings (ok, maybe not all of them, but that goes both ways) voted for the guy...

My recent timeline:

2000: Voted for McCain in primary because I knew Gore would get the nomination from the Dems (he did), but I disliked this spoiled failure of a Connecticut robber baron family (Bush) so much, I cast my lot with the Repugs for the primary (McCain won one of his only primaries in Vt.). Nov. 00, I voted Gore.

9/11/01 through about the end of January 02:

I supported this bastard and his minions bacause I thought it was for the common good. I was wrong.

Early 02 to present:

This administration has done more to hurt the collective morale of this country than any other admin in the history of my great country. IMO!

I think a lot of the difference in opinion comes from the fact that we supported different candidates in 2000. I don't think it was you, but a lot of people pointed out what a fucking moron Bush is. Gore was no higher on the 'intelligence' (or lack thereof) scale.

Interestingly, I did not support Bush until it became a choice between him and gore. I voted in the Primary for Steve Forbes. I actually contributed to his campaign effort petitioning, answering phones, etc...

Steve

[Velvet]

"Bush believed in the reason why we were there"

-What reason was that? Seriously.

"People on welfare STAY on welfare"

-That is a sad statement, and a popular one. People with social problems that aren't offered a solution remain mired in social problems. Getting a cheque every month that just covers the rent and food is not a solution.

"We can't just go in, overthrow a government and then just up and leave"

-Here's a novel solution: Stop overthrowing countries.

[StoneMtn]

No idea if the following ever happened, but I received this via email today. It's funny regardless...

President Bush was invited to address a major gathering of the American Indian Nation in Arizona.

He spoke for almost an hour on his future plans for increasing every Native American's present standard of living. He referred to his career as Governor of Texas, how he had signed "YES" 1,237 times- for every Indian issue that came to his desk for approval. Although the President was vague on the details of his plan, he seemed most enthusiastic about his future ideas for helping his "red brothers".

At the conclusion of his speech, the Tribes presented the President with a plaque inscribed with his new Indian name - Walking Eagle. The proud President then departed in his motorcade, waving to the crowds.

A news reporter later inquired to the group of chiefs of how they come to select the new name given to the President. They explained that Walking Eagle is the name given to a bird so full of shit it can no longer fly.

[Tooly]

bush sucks, end of story, i dont care why you voted for him, you my friend are a moron.

[Steve from Cleveland]

I contend that you do not get elected President of the USA if you are, as you say, a 'Bumbling idiot.

-That is the only argument I've ever heard to prove he's not an idiot. That kinda hints to me that your contention may be incorrect (not to mention VDave's more astute observation).

More astute observation? That being that Bush is a miserable human being? What does that have to do with whether or not he is intelligent? I agree he is a TERRIBLE orator. That makes him look stupid. I agree with that. However, the fact that he is not well-spoken does NOT make him an idiot. I believe that people judge his intelligence based on the (lousy) way he speaks.

"Bush did not MAKE our country a place that everyone despises... It was ALREADY a place most people despised anyway..."

-That's where the propoganda shows through. Yes, America has been the bad boy for quite a while, but the thing that everybody outside of America can see (but seems hard to convince Americans of) is that anti-American sentiment is now raging beyond anything the world has ever seen, and yes, Bushco. is to blame.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Anti-American sentiment is raging now more than ever. I don't need to be convinced. However, in 1999, when I was in Europe I got all kinds of Anti-American attitude from Europeans, and fellow travellers (many Canadians). I thought it was National Pride that all these people walked around with Maple patches on backpacks, etc... So I asked a few people about it (Canadians, obviously) and they ALL replied "So we're not mistaken for Americans."

Look, blame Bush all you want. I'll blame him too if that'll make you feel better. Certainly his actions/influence increased that anti-American feeling worldwide. But it's nothing new... People hate America for all kinds of reasons.

Sidenote: After meeting lots of Canadians after returning from Europe, I recognize that Canadians DO have a lot of national pride, and it's not solely to keep from being mistaken as Americans that travelers wear the maple leaf on their gear... Heck, I'm American and I LOVE Canada!

"I don't think we should make policy decisions based on what is 'popular' with the rest of the world, necessarily."

-Except perhaps international policy...

"I don't think 'public opinion' should dictate our actions by any means..."

-What if that public opinion is "Get the fuck out of my country and leave me and my people to our own business"?

Because some Iraqis don't want us there, does not mean that NONE of them want us there. Furthermore, had we left already, the place would be a bigger fucking mess than it is now... You can't just go overthrow a governmet and then pack it in and head home... (I realize this ignores whether or not it is OK to overthrow governments, which with respect to this issue is a rhetorical question, since it's already done)

"I think you're overestimating what really gets people elected in this country..."

-You mean touch-screen voting?

No, I mean hanging chads... 'Voting irregularities' have been going on as long as voting has... It's an inherent problem. I love how it's become an issue all of a sudden in the last 8 years...

-I don't know about down there, but up here it seemed that every day the chief inspector was saying that there was nothing in Iraq. I'm with you on this point, it's amazing that anybody believed Bushco.! Did you remember how he lied to the people about that in order to sell a war that continues to daily kill and maim your countrymen when you voted last time? I don't mean to be callous, honestly, it's just a bit mindboggling how anybody could support him after that (and a few other things).

Look, man. I have friends that are in Iraq... They know they could die, and so do I. The fact that some of them ARE does not fucking change anything. They have all said that it's part of the job. They are ORDERED to go do a job and that's what they're doing. They signed up for it, they weren't drafted. I think it's AWESOME, seriously, that despite the HUGE anti-war sentiment even in this country, that the support for the men&women of the armed forces is so unwavering. So different from Vietnam... And for the sake of my friends in the forces, and their friends, I am extremely happy that the average person has been able to make the distinction between those doind a job, and those ordering the job to be done.

"It was a vote that was rushed through because of emotion"

-emotion or agenda?

A little from column A, a little from column B...

Are you implying that the Democrats had an agenda, too? They were part of the group that rushed it through...

I hope that someday GWB will have some sort of epiphany and realise the carnage he has helmed.

You're entitled to that hope. I don't think it's gonna happen, but... Anyhow, rather than focus on the negative, I hope that someday the situation in Iraq is better for the average Iraqi. Because it's a mess now does not mean it always will be. Perhaps some good CAN come of this...

Steve

I don't know why the hell my quote function isn't working all of a sudden...

Edited September 14, 2005 by Guest

[Steve from Cleveland]

bush sucks, end of story, i dont care why you voted for him, you my friend are a moron.

Thanks for your input... I was specifically responding to bald guy in a blanket who ASKED why I voted for him. Look, I know you guys all hate Bush and think that anyone supports him is a fucking idiot as well. I really don't give a fuck, either. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I know that posting why I voted for him or even THAT I voted for him opens me up to insults and criticism. I am OK with that. Someone asked a legitimate question - WHY someone would vote for Bush. I briefly attempted to explain why I did. I was answering a question that was asked of me. I'm not on here looking for affirmation about the way I vote...

Honestly, I really don't give a fuck if you think I'm a moron or not. I voted my conscience. That's what I'm supposed to do... If you don't like it; respectfully, you can go fuck yourself...

Another Observation: I think it's a sad indication of the state of affairs in this counrty when the average Canadian cares more about American politics than does the average American...

S/C

[deranger]

"I think you're overestimating what really gets people elected in this country..."

-You mean touch-screen voting?

No, I mean hanging chads... 'Voting irregularities' have been going on as long as voting has... It's an inherent problem. I love how it's become an issue all of a sudden in the last 8 years...

Please, Steve, do a bit of research and see how plainly and obviously Bush and Co. STOLE the election. It wasn't an "irregulairty" it was a supreme court judge who ordered the re-count to stop. They had less votes than Gore. But more than that, they managed to keep THOUSANDS of ELIGIBLE people off voter roles, not to mention they counted INVALID ballots as valid (and no not the hanging chads). Its all there Steve, no one is making anything up or pushing opinion as fact.

Please, please refer to my ealier post and read Greg Palasts book "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" He devotes the first half to how Bush managed to steal the election. It's not some Left winger conspiracy theory, its based on FACTS that are notated quite concisely. He's an (American)investigative journalist who writes for the Guardian UK, not a crack-pot lefty spouting BS. And no the book isn't vitrolent Anti-American crap either.

If you're so proud of your friends fighting an illegal war, against INNOCENT people who never attacked you, or threatened to attack you, and you voted for the guy who sent your buddies there, at least educate yourself a bit further. Just because someone is ordered to do something, doesn't make it right or excusable for them to do it. They are humans who have a moral choice. Yes they joined the army and accepted that responsibility, but how many innocent Iraqis need to die before they realize that excuse has its limits too? (11 000 plus Iraq CILVILIANS dead)

Edited September 14, 2005 by Guest

[Steve from Cleveland]

Please, Steve, do a bit of research and see how plainly and obviously Bush and Co. STOLE the election. It wasn't an "irregulairty" it was a supreme court judge who ordered the re-count to stop. They had less votes than Gore. But more than that, they managed to keep THOUSANDS of ELIGIBLE people off voter roles, not to mention they counted INVALID ballots as valid (and no not the hanging chads). Its all there Steve, no one is making anything up or pushing opinion as fact.

I thought we were talking about the '04 election...

Please, please refer to my ealier post and read Greg Palasts book "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" He devotes the first half to how Bush managed to steal the election. It's not some Left winger conspiracy theory, its based on FACTS that are notated quite concisely. He's an (American)investigative journalist who writes for the Guardian UK, not a crack-pot lefty spouting BS. And no the book isn't vitrolent Anti-American crap either.

I'll add it to the list...

If you're so proud of your friends fighting an illegal war, against INNOCENT people who never attacked you, or threatened to attack you, and you voted for the guy who sent your buddies there, at least educate yourself a bit further. Just because someone is ordered to do something, doesn't make it right or excusable for them to do it. They are humans who have a moral choice. Yes they joined the army and accepted that responsibility, but how many innocent Iraqis need to die before they realize that excuse has its limits too? (11 000 plus Iraq CILVILIANS dead)

Look, it's not like I'm PROUD of what's they're doing. Neither are they, necessarily. The bottom line is that I'm being pragmatic about it. They are ordered to be there. You HONESTLY believe they could all just jump ship and claim they were handed down 'illegal' orders? Do you have any IDEA how hard that is to do for ONE person, let alone 100's of 1000's? I know, anything worth doing ain't easy... You do realize that you're basically suggesting that the whole of the US Armed Forces should try to 'unenlist' as conscientious objectors, or something?

Furthermore, I wasn't really speaking in my last post about PRIDE in what they're doing. Rather, I was expressing that I am glad for their sake that for as much anti-war sentiment as there is here in the US, that there is still support for the troops. Something that wasn't there in the Vietnam era... Even if it's just "Support our troops, bring them home."

And, yes, I do know about illegal orders, the Nuremburg trials, and the justification given by Nazis for committing atrocities.

And, yes, I am proud of my friends in the military. Regardless of what their orders are from the commander-in-chief.

S/C

Edited September 14, 2005 by Guest

[Velvet]

"More astute observation? That being that Bush is a miserable human being? What does that have to do with whether or not he is intelligent? I agree he is a TERRIBLE orator. That makes him look stupid. I agree with that. However, the fact that he is not well-spoken does NOT make him an idiot. I believe that people judge his intelligence based on the (lousy) way he speaks."

-I think VDave must have edited his post or I saw something that wasn't there. My point is that the man is always accused of being an idiot and the only thing anybody says to prove the naysayers wrong is that he became Pres so he can't be stupid. That's an ignorant view, period.

"Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Anti-American sentiment is raging now more than ever. I don't need to be convinced."

-So, you agree that Bushco. is making the world hate America more than ever, yet you still support him. This is a good way to stop terrorism? Self-imposed world policing can lead only to demoralisation of those policed or (the far more likely option) the downthrow of those policing.

"Because some Iraqis don't want us there, does not mean that NONE of them want us there. Furthermore, had we left already, the place would be a bigger fuÇking mess than it is now..."

-Look, it's just wrong to move into a country and overthrow them when they are minding their own business. The question isn't whether or not to leave, it's whether or not 'merica should have gone there. It's obvious to the world that this was a mistake. Do you agree? Was it a mistake to invade Iraq? Should those that made the mistake be held responsible or be supported?

"No, I mean hanging chads... 'Voting irregularities' have been going on as long as voting has... It's an inherent problem. I love how it's become an issue all of a sudden in the last 8 years..."

-This statement exonerates Bushco.? Really now, what's wrong with a paper and a pencil?

"They are ORDERED to go do a job and that's what they're doing. They signed up for it, they weren't drafted."

-So if the forces were ordered to go to, say Venezuala, and start murdering anybody that tried to stop them from securing all the oil in the country, well then those soldiers should just proudly march in and follow orders. I know, I know, you think Bushco. would never do something like that. Well guess what. He did.

"A little from column A, a little from column B...

Are you implying that the Democrats had an agenda, too? They were part of the group that rushed it through..."

-No, what I'm trying to say is what you referred to as emotion was an agenda. If Bushco. was so concerned about the people he mighta read that report from August 2001 titled "Osama determined to strike inside the US".

"I hope that someday the situation in Iraq is better for the average Iraqi."

-I hope that the situation on planet Earth gets better for the average earthling. It's obvious you don't believe this, but Bushco. is driving America into the ground, and with the foriegn policy he is carrying on the American tradition of trying to turn the world into America continues. It's an ugly situation that could be rectified if the American public could get their heads out of their bums and acknowledge that just 'cuz it's American doesn't make it right. Bushco. is on a mission, and that mission is to spread democracy throughout the world. He says that and all the Americans jump up and down saying how benevolant it is to work so hard and spend so much money spreading democracy. Well believe it or not, some don't want it.

Spreading democracy is this eras version of civilising the savages. It was wrong then and it's wrong now.

"I think it's a sad indication of the state of affairs in this counrty when the average Canadian cares more about American politics than does the average American..."

-Sorry, I can only read this as remarkable ignorance or (wayyyyy more likely) good old 'merican arrogance. "Gee, why is everybody so concerned about how we do things anyway? Guess that reaffirms how important we are." Are you sitting down? WE ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH AMERICAN POLITICS THAN OUR OWN BECAUSE AMERICA IS SERIOUSLY FUCKING UP THE PLANET IN MORE WAYS THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY.

Okay, now for my theory: Bushco. is deliberately trying to bankrupt the USA by transferring the treasury into the bank accounts of big business. Then when the announcement comes that the country is broke because of all the good work America does throughout the world, the powers that be will offer a deal to the people: either accept the society-crushing depression of going from vastly rich to vastly poor, or geez, Halliburton has offered to loan the country trillions of dollars to get out of this mess, and all they want in return is a little political clout. Plus it's no secret that if Americans will work for peanuts they won't have to outsource anymore.

The current administration in the USA is the worst thing that has happened to planet earth in the last 50 years at least. It can't go on, it won't go on.

Oh, and you heard it here first: GWB will be America's first ever three-term President.

[Diggzz]

I think everyone should take a step back and give Steve a break. He has come on here and answered questiones honestly and frankly to the few who cared to actually ask intelligent questions (I'll exclude the the peeps using personal attacks or calling him a moron). Politics by their nature divide people with different views and opinions. He told his side, it may not be yours but that's your problem not his. If I said Paul Martin and the Liberals were idiots I'd get sh!t from 90% of people on this board. People are entilted to their opinions, deal with it like an adult.

Edited September 14, 2005 by Guest
Spelling

[StoneMtn]

As Bush and Co hang most of their atrocities on the peg of "War on Terrorism", therefore justified, I think we should also consider what "terrorism" actually is; and whether it's appropriate for the US Government to declare a war on something that it perpetuates itself. The following quote is from a longer piece by Chomsky, that I really wish more Americans would read:

We're doing it so it doesn't count. It's only when "they" carry out what we officially define as "terrorism" that it counts.

Well, it's easy to go on but let me just return to the weak thesis: there can't be a war against terrorism as terrorism is defined in official U.S. documents, it's a logical impossibility. This is a small sample of illustrations -- you can go on easily -- but it's enough to show that that can't be true. Well, that's the weak thesis. What about the strong thesis, that it is all so entirely obvious that it would be embarrassing to talk about it because it's all right on the surface, nothing hidden about any of this? Everything that I mention is perfectly well known, you don't have to penetrate anything to discover it. No obscure sources, nothing, just the obvious evidence. And you can easily add to it, there's a ton of literature about it for the last twenty years but that literature also can't be discussed because it comes out with the wrong conclusion. So it's treated the same way terrorism is in our intellectual culture. Again, choice, not a necessity. So we end up with a kind of dilemma. If we are not honest, forget it. If we are honest, there's a dilemma. One possibility is just to acknowledge that we are total hypocrites and then to at least have the decency to stop talking about human rights, right and wrong and good and evil and so on and say "we are hypocrites and we have force and we are going to run the world by force, period. Let's forget about everything else." The other option is harder to pursue but it's imperative. Unless we would like to contribute to still worse disasters that are likely to lie ahead.

[Hux]

see my reason for edit...

Edited September 14, 2005 by Guest
So you can't completely delete posts anymore??

[Steve from Cleveland]

"I think it's a sad indication of the state of affairs in this counrty when the average Canadian cares more about American politics than does the average American..."

-Sorry, I can only read this as remarkable ignorance or (wayyyyy more likely) good old 'merican arrogance. "Gee, why is everybody so concerned about how we do things anyway? Guess that reaffirms how important we are." Are you sitting down? WE ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH AMERICAN POLITICS THAN OUR OWN BECAUSE AMERICA IS SERIOUSLY FUCKING UP THE PLANET IN MORE WAYS THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY.

I don't mind that you guys are interested in how we do things. I can appreciate that it affect you, too. I'm not trying to be arrogant, nor am I being ignorant. I was simply commenting that it is a sad state of affairs BECAUSE most Canadians (that I've talked to anyhow) have more knowledge of, insight into, and passion about American politics than Americans do. I know plenty of people who decided who to vote for DAY OF the election. Others that don't even know what the idealogical differences are betwwen R and D... How's that for ignorant? Really, all I was remarking on was the overall ambivelence toward politics in this country and the fact that Canadians seem to care more than the people who elect our President.

Ultimately, just re-affirming what a sad state this has become...

I don't want you to confuse overall American ignorance (or arrogance) with my arrogance or ignorance.

Oh, and you heard it here first: GWB will be America's first ever three-term President.

You taking bets?

Steve

Edited September 14, 2005 by Guest

[Hux]

[color:purple]Don't talk about Uncle Paul like that!!

[Steve from Cleveland]

I think everyone should take a step back and give Steve a break. He has come on here and answered questiones honestly and frankly to the few who cared to actually ask intelligent questions (I'll exclude the the peeps using personal attacks or calling him a moron). Politics by their nature divide people with different views and opinions. He told his side, it may not be yours but that's your problem not his. If I said Paul Martin and the Liberals were idiots I'd get sh!t from 90% of people on this board. People are entilted to their opinions, deal with it like an adult.

Word.

Thanks, dude... Really... Like I said before, I know my views are contrary to the majority opinion around here. I know that posting about my views opens me up to criticism/attacks. Honestly, I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind about this stuff. Likewise, no one is changing mine, except myself, perhaps upon further investigation. I reserve the right to change my own mind, basically.

As I said, I was doing my best to honestly and directly answer the questions that were asked of me... Knowing full well that I was opening myself to riddicule. I can take it, but it does eventually get kind of old... The bottom line is that I am not unintelligent, I consider myself MORE informed with respect to politics than the AVERAGE American, and I vote my conscience. So you disagree, Big Deal... Doesn't my Constitution give me that right?

Steve

[Diggzz]

No worries at all...

Sidenote: Anyone catch Kurt Vonnegut on The Daily Show last night? Pretty good segment, he wants Jon Stewart to post a list on his website of "LIBERAL CRAP I NEVER WANT TO HEAR AGAIN" heres the link...

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/extras/vonnegut.jhtml

[Velvet]

"I was simply commenting that it is a sad state of affairs BECAUSE most Canadians (that I've talked to anyhow) have more knowledge of, insight into, and passion about American politics than Americans do."

-Sorry, I missed your point there.

"You taking bets?"

-Yes, but not even money.

[AdamH]

Random thought #1: My girlfriend noticed yesterday that many of the "Support our Troops" stickers are found on SUVs. Why is this significant?

Random Thought #2: Historically where soldiers have been drafted, it's pretty much a given that many of them would've preferred not joining the army and risking their lives. My dad was drafted during the Vietnam War, and also did his compulsory service in Israel, and growing up he always said I could do anything I wanted for a profession, EXCEPT join the army.

In the WOT, soldiers aren't being drafted, they're being recruited. For many of them the Army is the way out of poverty and an uncertain future (not speaking for your friends Steve, but for the ones I know of). If it's not the only option, it's the only option that looks good to a 19-year old black male from Tennesee, or a 21 year old who squeaked through high school, or the occasional white kid who had a rough upbringing and is looking for something to help him or her focus. The free college thing, the salary...all of those seem like good options and help diminish the fact that you're going to fight a war, somewhere in the world, and some of you won't be coming back.

From the army's standpoint knowledge of world issues, heck, knowledge of who it is you're fighting is more of a hazard than a benefit. The absence of context makes propagandizing and re-programming you physically and mentally that much easier. In this case it comes as no surprise that most US soldiers had never left the country, let alone their hometowns before being stationed in Iraq, most had no idea where Iraq was, and many of them want to come home now.

I can't lend unwavering support to Steve's friends, but I also can't be angry with them for the choices they made. As luck would have it we're a bunch of white middle-class educated people who had choices to begin with, and I doubt we have much understanding of the military (and especially the US military) nor the reasons that young people joined it in the first place. Forgive me for sounding arrogant but I don't think any of us has much connection to those who are currently serving, so argument such as "Those people had a choice" don't have much merit when, for a majority, they felt they had no choice.

Random Thought #3: I think Kanye is onto something: This war and the state of the States has as much to do with longstanding racial divides as it does any real or imagined terrorist threats.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

ummmm i think you contradicted yourself in pt #2 there Polky

whoops, maybe not- I didn't see the distinction between this:

"In the WOT, soldiers aren't being drafted, they're being recruited. For many of them the Army is the way out of poverty and an uncertain future (not speaking for your friends Steve, but for the ones I know of). If it's not the only option, it's the only option that looks good to a 19-year old black male from Tennesee, or a 21 year old who squeaked through high school, or the occasional white kid who had a rough upbringing and is looking for something to help him or her focus. The free college thing, the salary...all of those seem like good options and help diminish the fact that you're going to fight a war, somewhere in the world, and some of you won't be coming back."

And this:

"...I doubt we have much understanding of the military (and especially the US military) nor the reasons that young people joined it in the first place."

Still don't quite get it but I haven't taken the time to read all this thoroughly

Carry on...

Edited September 14, 2005 by Guest

[Hux]

REVEALED:

The genius of George W. Bush's stupidity - Windows Media

[deranger]

I think everyone should take a step back and give Steve a break. He has come on here and answered questiones honestly and frankly to the few who cared to actually ask intelligent questions (I'll exclude the the peeps using personal attacks or calling him a moron). Politics by their nature divide people with different views and opinions. He told his side' date=' it may not be yours but that's your problem not his. If I said Paul Martin and the Liberals were idiots I'd get sh!t from 90% of people on this board. People are entilted to their opinions, deal with it like an adult.[/quote']

Word.

Thanks, dude... Really... Like I said before, I know my views are contrary to the majority opinion around here. I know that posting about my views opens me up to criticism/attacks. Honestly, I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind about this stuff. Likewise, no one is changing mine, except myself, perhaps upon further investigation. I reserve the right to change my own mind, basically.

As I said, I was doing my best to honestly and directly answer the questions that were asked of me... Knowing full well that I was opening myself to riddicule. I can take it, but it does eventually get kind of old... The bottom line is that I am not unintelligent, I consider myself MORE informed with respect to politics than the AVERAGE American, and I vote my conscience. So you disagree, Big Deal... Doesn't my Constitution give me that right?

Steve

Double Word

[AdamH]

Davey: the "we" is Canadians, and in particularly the mostly white, educated middle-class folks we are who make up a minority in the US army.

[Vermontdave]

Steve,

I apologize for the over the top, incoherent bashing of the POTUS. I was a little drunk.I didn't mean to offend you. The fact that you care about the direction of the country enough to vote your concience is admirable. I agree with you on points you made about the two party system.

Still, I disagree with your reasons for voting for George W.. In my opinion, Al Gore is not an idiot, and would have made a better POTUS than our current gendarme.

The only question I have for you is how do you go from favoring Dean to rejecting Kerry and then voting Bush? His policies since his selection in Jan. 01, coupled with State wide majority of the Repugs have brought the economic growth of your state down.

Oh yeah, Davey Boy can keep his opinions about M.U., and any other thuoghts he has to hisself.

peace

[Steve from Cleveland]

VermontDave,

No worries, I don't recall being offended...

As far as the Dean/Kerry/Bush thing... I favored Dean, because he was about as far removed from the political 'machine' as one could be and still be in a serious campaign for the presidency... I also liked the fact that a HUGE portion of his donations came from private citizens, and not huge corporations/lobbyist groups... Also, to have THAT much grassroots support one really has to make an impression on people. Just seemed to me like a guy who really 'got' what the whole thing was about. And I respected that. As mentioned, I generally consider myself a Rupublican. The fact that I would have voted for Dean in a PRESIDENTIAL race, to me was pretty significant.

The guy was KILLING in the primaries... Then that one sound byte got way out of hand, and they fucking crucified the guy! Did it sound, stupid, mabe a little crazy? Yes. Would I support someone who is THAT excited about a successful campaign? Heck yes I would!

Once that happened, it was back to the same old duldrums Rep/Dem. Basically in that battle, I stick with the Republicans, unless a good reason exists not to--along with the reasons I gave in an earlier post. Dean, to me, would have given me that 'good reason' to go against my 'traditional' vote. that's kind of what I meant by voting my conscience. Ultimately, Kerry didn't ever really give me a reason to vote FOR him. So essentially I voted against him.

That's basically how it happened...

Steve

[Tooly]

bush sucks' date=' end of story, i dont care why you voted for him, you my friend are a moron.[/quote']

Thanks for your input... I was specifically responding to bald guy in a blanket who ASKED why I voted for him. Look, I know you guys all hate Bush and think that anyone supports him is a fucking idiot as well. I really don't give a fuck, either. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I know that posting why I voted for him or even THAT I voted for him opens me up to insults and criticism. I am OK with that. Someone asked a legitimate question - WHY someone would vote for Bush. I briefly attempted to explain why I did. I was answering a question that was asked of me. I'm not on here looking for affirmation about the way I vote...

Honestly, I really don't give a fuck if you think I'm a moron or not. I voted my conscience. That's what I'm supposed to do... If you don't like it; respectfully, you can go fuck yourself...

Another Observation: I think it's a sad indication of the state of affairs in this counrty when the average Canadian cares more about American politics than does the average American...

S/C

Just calling it how i see it, im american, i voted for kerry, all my american family did the same, yeah theres tons of ppl here and there who love bush, im not one of them, and i cant understand why he got voted back in. it boggles my dual citizenshipped mind.

i wonder if the # of iraqi deaths equal the # of americans who voted for bush, thats something you could be proud of eh? "yeah brah my vote for bush is worth 2 or 3 dead iraqis YEEEHAWWWW!!

think about it, someone should do some research here, im on lunch at work, dont have time. but someone should, maybe when i get home i will

get ridda bush! buy a fuggin razor!!!