So it goes...

[Birdy]

i could wax the philosophical but i didn't have time for a coffee this morning.

of course i totally agree with you ad, blowing up innocent people is twisted. There's no doubt about that. But that is simply the consequences of the "end" and not the means to the end.

not to go english 101 here, but i cannot help but bring up reference to Joseph Conrads Heart of Darkness. I think it was your reference to barbarism

understanding is the only tool that we as humans possess that differ us from the neanderthals.. the ability to empathize. understanding has EVERYTHING to do with it. you're shutting a door when you label this act as barbarism.. seriously ad, these are HUMAN BEINGS who believe in something so whole heartedly that they are willing to DIE for it. don't call this act barbaric! you nor i, nor hopefully anyone on this board, could even imagine having a belief so strong and so near to our hearts as these people do. this kind of faith isn't barbaric, is absolutely, fucking remarkable. personally, as radical as this sounds, i admire this faith. subtract the innocents, subtract the western world and look at the man himself. its something to admire. really and truly.

[Deeps]

Being severely religious is fucked up. It narrows the mind.

I wonder what level of the suicide bomber works for the defense of his/her freedom and which works for Allah.

It's got to vary from person to person don't you think?

[AD]

hehe it got you thinking. and most of the time you have to boil down complexity as best as possible for clarity's sake. for example, i don't understand anything you just wrote. but i vaguely get the point. we are all procrastinating.

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[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

There's no way to understand barbarism.

By definition - the Greeks coined the word from the "bar bar" sounds they heard the Persians make (those Persians - surely a regressive culture if there ever was one. Persian bastards!).

There is a bit of a jump from that to trying to learn the language. I'm reminded of American tourists I've seen in Quebec....

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

we are all procrastinating.ad

There's the point! Thanks!

[deranger]

check out Fog of War by Errol Morris (spell.?) a documentary about Robert MacNamara. The whole section oabout the firebombing of Japan as it compares to American cities, and the casualty levels in terms of civilian populations is staggering. Americans have targeted civilians, and will continue to do so. From Japan, to Latin American death squads in Nicaragua and Guatamala, to the bombing of Dresden in WWII.

Personally, I feel that Chrsitianity is easily as fundementalist as any other religion.

[AD]

its something to admire. really and truly.

every religion i know of (and i'm not as smart as some on this board so i could be wrong) preaches that life is sacred. so how can you admire someone who willingly takes it away? I don't think it's a remarkable belief in a part of a religion that makes a suicide bomber, I think it's remarkable ignorance and hipocrisy of the heart of the belief.

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[deranger]

some things are more important to one person then their own life....

[Birdy]

but i'm fired up and i soooooooo don't have time for this..

deeps.. i think freedom and allah go hand in hand.

in the free spiriting, free wielding, open armed nature of the hippies and liberals of north american i can see why one would think being deeply religious narrows the mind.

if so, why does ad refer to these acts as barbaric? why can't any of us understand them? why do we get fired up reading a friggin' interview vonnegut gave with some seriously racy comments?

cause we don't understand.

cause it's our minds that are narrow.

cause maybe, just maybe, on the otherside of the world, in a land that doesn't resemble jambands.ca, we are the barbarians.

[AD]

true, but how can you uphold the religion by violating the core of it?

i have no problem if these bombers want to commit suicide, just don't take other people along with you who have no choice in the matter.

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[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

every religion i know of (and i'm not as smart as some on this board so i could be wrong) preaces life is sacred. so how can you admire someone who willingly takes it away? I don't think it's a remarkable belief in a part of a religion that makes a suicide bomber, I think it's remarkable ignorance and hipocrisy of the heart of the belief.

I think you're totally right, if it is to be granted that the universe is basically a good and congenial place. I still think, though, that once you introduce basic human insecurity into the mix, all bets are off. I don't think you'll find two people belonging to any religious tradition agreeing completely with one another about the essence or the details of their common tradition over the course of their lives - at least, not without some degree of coercion (though that may be me reading it through modernist, post-Enlightenment lenses, which tell us that we have to work things out for ourselves).

[Birdy]

every religion i know of (and i'm not as smart as some on this board so i could be wrong) preaches that life is sacred. so how can you admire someone who willingly takes it away?

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because though they are taking away lives, they truly believe they are saving more.

[Birdy]

true, but how can you uphold the religion by violating the core of it?

i have no problem if these bombers want to commit suicide, just don't take other people along with you who have no choice in the matter.

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agreed.. but again, still the end, and not the means to the end.

[Birdy]

its 11.11 am.. make a wish.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

true, but how can you uphold the religion by violating the core of it?

i have no problem if these bombers want to commit suicide, just don't take other people along with you who have no choice in the matter.

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I'd agree (inasmuch as orthodox Muslims condemn suicide bombers on the same grounds).

That's why I think the most imperative thing we can do is not to stoke any more negativity about what we can't deal with, but to get our own house, such as it is, in order - for people who are familiar and intimate with, say, Christianity, to call people like Falwell on their shit (if a "core" of Christianity is to be found and is to be worth defending). And we don't have to travel to Virginia to do so, either - there's plenty going on here at home to deal with.

Unfortunately, there are enough litmus-test issues around too to neuter these kinds of efforts - just take same-sex rights, a question that has divided people on this board in the recent past - as an example.

[AD]

cause maybe, just maybe, on the otherside of the world, in a land that doesn't resemble jambands.ca, we are the barbarians.

Well I don't like to toot my own horn, but I've been to this land you speak of and the VAST MAJORITY (ha, 100%) of the people I talked to about this think anything the West can do to stop the terrorists that control their country is fair play. When I arrived in Afghanistan people were visibly upset with me and the guys I was with. I had to ask them why, I assumed it was because of the stereotype that the West was hated. No, it was because A) we obviously weren't soldiers and there were only 3 of us.

I don't know the point I was trying to make... But I think it's something like the suicide bombers are such a freak fringe group and their acts and beliefs cannot be applied to anyone other than other freak, fringe groups.

I don't know. My train of thought got interupted by my damn boss. Bastard. I'm thinking here dammit!!

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[Hal Johnson]

So it goes...

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

because though they are taking away lives, they truly believe they are saving more.

I don't know if for these folks they're really all that concerned about life per se - as I understand it, it's more about working towards the growth in perpetuity of the domain of Islam (dar al-Islam), and towards the elimination of the domain of conflict/infidelity (dar al-harb). Kinda like what David Mainse on 100 Huntley St. means when he says he means to take Canada for Christ (only he does it through getting people to vote for certain measures that in the long run threaten cultural diversity).

Sure, I'll take the vote-mongerer over the suicide bomber any day, but I'd still suggest they're cut from the same cloth - they both have this need to make difference go away (with a bang or a whimper).

[Velvet]

I think the suicide bomber thing is really quite easy to understand.

Here you got a people who are losing life as they know it through an extremely foriegn occupation. Because of war and occupation their lives and the lives of everyone they know is changing drastically to something they don't want. So, they have to fight a war, and given their relative lack of firepower against the enemy they only have one resort. They're in a "die or bend over" dilemma, and they have decided not to bend over.

By the way, I think "suicide bomber" is a bit misleading. Sure they are commiting suicide, but that isn't the goal - these people aren't walking into the middle of a field and pulling the wire; they're getting as close to the enemy as they can before lighting up. Like that lady whose bomb wouldn't go off - she didn't stick around to die in her husbands bomb, she took off. She's not trying to commit suicide, she's trying to destroy her enemies, and there's only one way.

Two ways I guess.

Are Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who plant roadside bombs crazy too?

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Are Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who plant roadside bombs crazy too?

This would raise the whole issue of countries that drag their heels on landmine elimination.

[AD]

Of course you're totally right Velvet, but I still have problems with the suicide bomber tactic, although granted like you said it's not really a choice, it comes from despair. I hate the thinking behind it 'I'm gonna blow this up to save me and my friends, by killing me and some of my friends and hopefully some enemies.'

Unorthodox and sad. I hate it. When I play chess and I know I'm beat, I set the King down. How do these 'freedomfighterinsurgentsextremists' think they can 'win'?

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[Birdy]

cause maybe' date=' just maybe, on the otherside of the world, in a land that doesn't resemble jambands.ca, we are the barbarians. [/quote']

Well I don't like to toot my own horn, but I've been to this land you speak of and the VAST MAJORITY (ha, 100%) of the people I talked to about this think anything the West can do to stop the terrorists that control their country is fair play. When I arrived in Afghanistan people were visibly upset with me and the guys I was with. I had to ask them why, I assumed it was because of the stereotype that the West was hated. No, it was because A) we obviously weren't soldiers and there were only 3 of us.

I don't know the point I was trying to make... But I think it's something like the suicide bombers are such a freak fringe group and their acts and beliefs cannot be applied to anyone other than other freak, fringe groups.

I don't know. My train of thought got interupted by my damn boss. Bastard. I'm thinking here dammit!!

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how rude!

i would honestly hope that you weren’t on afghani soil talking to terrorists or suicide bombers, if so, you’d probably be a wanted man somewhere in north america.

i guess it boils down to this. there is a reason why the world hates the west. we have this un-fringed air of superiority about us. we instill our values on peoples like they are “THE†values for the taking. it’s our way or the highway so to speak and we do little to concern ourselves with what some of those back roads may look like. my original point was to stop acting all high and mighty and attempt to empathize with what is actually going on over there, from an objective stand point.

but its impossible.. it would require stripping yourself of everything you know to be true and honourable and decent and erasing your entire history and blanking your mind.. then and only then could you be objective.

but this is what needs to be known. we all need to know that we are not objective.. that what we think about this situation is only a “SIDE†to a story.

however, attempting to be objective can only make us better.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

I'm starting to wonder just how prepared you really are for martyrdom there Birdy

[Birdy]

I think the suicide bomber thing is really quite easy to understand.

Here you got a people who are losing life as they know it through an extremely foriegn occupation. Because of war and occupation their lives and the lives of everyone they know is changing drastically to something they don't want. So, they have to fight a war, and given their relative lack of firepower against the enemy they only have one resort. They're in a "die or bend over" dilemma, and they have decided not to bend over.

By the way, I think "suicide bomber" is a bit misleading. Sure they are commiting suicide, but that isn't the goal - these people aren't walking into the middle of a field and pulling the wire; they're getting as close to the enemy as they can before lighting up. Like that lady whose bomb wouldn't go off - she didn't stick around to die in her husbands bomb, she took off. She's not trying to commit suicide, she's trying to destroy her enemies, and there's only one way.

Two ways I guess.

Are Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who plant roadside bombs crazy too?

the suicide bomber thing, in the literal sense of suicide, isn’t so easy to understand.. that’s what i’m talking about.. literally pulling the plug on your own life.. and i think thats what most people grapple with trying to understand.. or at least “see†when they think of what is happening here.

you’re right and obviously have attempted to understand. its not about suicide.. that is “our†interpretation. they’re in a war and fighting an enemy the best way they can. just cause it sounds crazy to us, doesn’t mean its crazy to them.

[AD]

i would honestly hope that you weren’t on afghani soil talking to terrorists or suicide bombers, if so, you’d probably be a wanted man somewhere in north america.

Hehe, there's definitely a file on me somewhere... I don't believe I talked to any terrorists or suicide bombers no (good point), but I talked to many normal people affected by terrorists (Taleban), many Northern Alliance soldiers who have lived war for years, and many police and militia people. They are all muslim, they 100% disagree with tactics, beliefs etc of suicide bombers and those who want to exert power and instill the radical Islamic ideology in their country.

Mind you there isn't much suicide bombing going on in Afghanistan. Kabul must be disneyworld compared to Baghdad. But still. The people in Kabul, Kandahar, Herat were screaming for the west to help them reclaim their homeland... Yet the perception here is that the West is hated, all because of a small freak fringe group.

Fuck I've done no work today.

AD