Church (etc.) Camps

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I just ran across this article - Film Shows Youths Training to Fight for Jesus - and it got me thinking about all the other youth-oriented camps around the world that cater to religious conservatives - the RSS shakhas in India, the madrasas around the Muslim world, and so on, which seem both to cater to the Boy Scout element along with the ready-to-fight-the-unbeliever/save-our-homeland thing as well.

I spent enough time in that world (evangelical, esp.) as a kid to have a bit of an angle on it, but I'm wondering what exposure anyone else may have had to any of this stuff, and how you've come to understand it. Does the rhetoric mean anything like the picture we're painted of the paramilitary-esque training schools around the world across a variety of traditions, which often enough use very much the same sort of language to work their point?

[DevO]

Ive had very little to no exposure and I cant pretend to understand it at all really, but i just saw some clips from that new documentary and man does it look messed up! a must-see. My immediate reaction is that these poor kids are heavily indoctrinated well before they have the chance or ability to make their own decisions.

[d_rawk]

Wow, I totally want to see that. I'm of the school of thought that people have no business sending their children to Sunday School or religious youth camps of any kind. Mind you, I'd support their right to do so, legally, unequivocally ... but be saddened when they excercised that right.

If for no other reason than reducing deep hard complicated meaning to soft plastic fables doesn't do a thing for anyone. But there are other reasons, too, like ... well, fucking danger.

Children are (or at least can be, as much as anyone else) spiritual, no doubt. But religiousity is something different, and often commands a certain amount of life experience before its value -- such as it is -- is anywhere near accesible. I think. But I don't know. By any stretch of the imagination.

And because my posts on these subjects always end with at least passing mention to the Quakers, I'll add that it is one of my reservations and deep disapointmennts about what they've done. The serious push for first-day Schools, IMO, was an unfortunate mistake, well meaning as it was. So, yeah.

[djmelbatoast]

I'm the son of a preacher man and I had to go to every type of religious ceremony, service, school and camp that the church had to offer. It wasn't military in any way though. It was however a long drawn out process of brainwashing and implementation of a specific doctrine brought about using the tools of shame, and fear of not only hell but disappointing those 'in charge'.

All in all though I think I turned out alright.

Is it 3 o'clock already? Maybe I'll have another drink.

[d_rawk]

Preacher man of what type?

[Calamity Jane]

d-rawk....I really like the points you've made....especially....

....reducing deep hard complicated meaning to soft plastic fables doesn't do a thing for anyone.

that was a nice image

and...

Children are (or at least can be, as much as anyone else) spiritual, no doubt. But religiousity is something different, and often commands a certain amount of life experience before its value -- such as it is -- is anywhere near accesible.

as whacked as my church ans Sunday school experiences may have been, at least in the Anglican tradition, "Confirmation" (read "indoctrination into the church and it's beliefs") happens in the teen years, ostensibly under one's own sound mind/volition, precisely for the reasons you state.

I've always shuddered at those dolled-up First Communion photos of really young kids from Catholic families. As you said, this is parents exercising a "right" to raise (indoctrinate) children in their chosen faith system. I believe kids should be exposed to a myriad of ideas and left to choose for themselves IF they wish to join/follow ANY faith community.

the problem lies in certain faiths convincing people that unbaptized babies/non-practicing or faith-professing children will GO TO HELL, DO NOT PASS GO, DO NOT PLEAD YOUR CASE WITH GOD, GO STRAIGHT AND DIRECT TO AN ETERNAL HELL if they die. And these same folks apparently believe in a compassionate, forgiving and understanding God (when he's feeling up to it, i guess)

No wonder a lot of evangelical 'escapees' describe themselves as such!

[djmelbatoast]

Anglican but the camps were Menonite.

And Anglicans hve first communion with infants too. As for confirmation, i was no one that I confirmed with (at around the age of 14) decison. All the parents.

[d_rawk]

Thanks, CJ. I'm glad to know that I'm not way off base -- I grew up in a non-religious environment, and while I used to trot myself voluntarily off to the sunday-school-down-the-street, I'm quite sure these things couldn't have been any less interesting to those around me.

I find it outrageous, though, how completely different what I remember that those people in those "educational" settings were telling me from what I actually get from reading the texts directly -- those same texts that they were supposedly pulling their 'lessons' from.

There is a cheapness to trying to make this stuff kid-friendly. Suddenly my mind wanders to those "narrated by Charlton Heston" videos that they hawk on Vision-TV late at night.

It's ugly.

And just to take the Christian tradition, because it is the most common in this neck of the woods, sometimes I hear what people think is in the bible and just have to think ... what the fuck??. But I guess it comes down to trusting, and allowing these people that you trust to do all the interpreting for you. And with children -- they have trust, but not the developed critical faculties to recognize when they are being duped. That's a recipe for disaster. Or at least an invitation for one.

[hamilton]

as whacked as my church ans Sunday school experiences may have been, at least in the Anglican tradition, "Confirmation" (read "indoctrination into the church and it's beliefs") happens in the teen years, ostensibly under one's own sound mind/volition, precisely for the reasons you state.

I agree with your sentiment - but I particularly agree with the word "ostensibly". A lot of parents would have a shit-fit if their kid avoided Confirmation, and peer-pressure alone probably makes a lot of kids who don't really care go through with the ceremony, just to fit in. I went to a Catholic school, and I can remember the reaction of all of our classmates towards the one girl who chose not to be confirmed.

As you stated above, it's only a choice if you have been exposed to the options.

[MarcO]

Agreed. I went through the Catholic paces of Confirmation, etc. because I thought it was the normal course of life. Later, when Jesus went the way of Santa Claus for me, I realized I did have options.

Nothing gets me more upset than someone saying something contentious like, oh I dunno, "Gays are sinners that will have a special place in Hell". I ask them how they arrived at such a thoughtful and sensitive conclusion, and the best I hear is "that's the way I was raised!".

For me, being an adult isn't about your age, it's about finally trying to make some sense of all those mesasges you received as a child (especially from your family) and rejecting those that wither in the scrutiny, and upholding those that you can stand by. "That's the way I was raised, therefore that's what I think" is just another way of saying "I think what my Mom and Dad tell me to think."

[jonyak]

I got kicked out of bible camp because I asked to many questions.

well not kicked so much as asked to leave and told that maybe bible camp was nto for me.

[Calamity Jane]

Awesome, Jon...that's awesome.

"rejected by jesus" (Now how's THAT for a band name?)

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

- I was gonna say! If only I hadn't held my breath, waiting for coherent and consistent answers for so long, and squandering all the stuff life was presenting at the time....

Btw, what was that Jesus-related band name you were mentioning a little while ago, again? That was a keeper, too .

I'm reminded in the comments above (thank you all) of one of the best things I ever heard from a colleague in Religious Studies (not Theology, where these questions have different implications and restrictions) as a strategy to get people to write intelligent papers has been to get students to run what they write through the "Find and Replace" feature on their word processors; each time they would use the words "I believe" they would have to replace them with "I argue", and then re-read the paper to see if it made any sense. Usually, much, much more work would be involved.

[bokonon]

I went to a couple of camps with the Christadelphians. They preached that you shouldn't associate much with people who didn't believe in "The Truth", and if you had to, you were to be actively converting them at every opportunity. If you want to go do anything outside of your house (providing you are finished doing your daily bible readings) you must do it in conjunction with the Church or at least with other church members. Every day of the week there was something at the church so you never had an excuse to have any sort of secular activities. Your entire mind and being had to be devoted to "The Truth". It sucked.

[Kanada Kev]

Your entire mind and being had to be devoted to "The Truth".

Dave Grippo??