Contested Symbols

[d_rawk]

Gold! Green's statement should be worked into NDP promotional material as an endorsement, stat.

[ollie]

I actually agree with the premise of Lowell's complaint. I think the word "Christmas" should be used where appropriate and not substituted with something like "Holiday". The particular angle of the segment I listened to was about Home Depot advertising "Holiday Trees" for sale.

It's the ninny-ish way they go about it that drives me nuts, plus the fact that for most people in his camp it's just an excuse to air some latent racist views. They do a horrible job of representing the argument.

[Birdy]

ugh. i'm throwing a pretty big christmas party next saturday and had the invites just about ready to go to print, until it was levied down that it shouldn't be called a "christmas" party... but rather a "holiday" party.

i'm sick of tiptoeing.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

That's right! Jesus Christ is everyone's Lord and saviour, and don't anybody forget it!

More seriously, I think it's important to aim for accuracy. Of course, they're Christmas trees and not "holiday" trees; to be yet more accurate, though, shouldn't they be called "Black Forest trees", if that's in fact where they came from?

The whole thing's fucked, really. Christmas has only been a major holiday for a century at best. Easter used to be the big Christian holiday.

[Birdy]

well, here's my question to the leviers.. you change the name, but you don't require me to take down the tree with ornaments and lights, or get rid of the 200 model cars being given out as gifts.. or the little chocolates in truffle boxes wrapped with paper and tied with bows or to ask the dj not to play anything with the mention of santa, or angels or christmas or rudolph???

if you're sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo considerate of others, shouldn't we just wipe everything that smells like christmas from the party menu? should we not all sit around the table with white table clothes, no decorations, no special lighting, no centrepieces and dance to nothing but nelly furtado's promiscuous girl? but even that, i'm sure will serve to offend SOMEONE!

SHEESH! if given the opportunity all these people who find everything soooo offensive will leave this world a blank slate.. devoid of anything celebratory in nature. you like to celebrate? TOO BAD. i don't!

GRR! haha.. i get all fired up about this stuff.

you know what, this is a christmas party! i'm not asking you to come and observe the sabbath, i'm asking you to come and get drunk and party your ass off. if you don't like it, stay at home. i'm sure the rest of us will have a better time if you do!!!

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Christ... mass. Think about it. A communal meal for Jesus.

Holidays are important! I love getting drunk-as-fuck and partying my ass off (and of course, Jesus was reputedly one of the best vintners going). I just wish we'd be clear on what they actually meant, so that we could share the meaning together. Otherwise I think we're culturally at cross-purposes. That's what I think people are getting at.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

i'm crashing your party

[color:#CCCCCC]but staying home

[ollie]

The whole thing's fucked, really. Christmas has only been a major holiday for a century at best. Easter used to be the big Christian holiday.

It's been a major holiday my entire life and I consider it a part of my cultural heritage. And 100 years in the life of Canada is actually a pretty significant chunk of time.

I try not to overthink Christmas. It's the time of year I spend more time with friends and family, pay more attention to eating good food and drinking libations, buy and receive gifts.

I don't get hung up on the consumerism angle about Christmas. Our culture is based around consumerism. What's wrong with going a little overboard at the end of the year?

I don't get hung up on the religious angle about Christmas. I'm agnostic at best but I still enjoy the story about the birth of Jesus, the religious carols, the symbolic decorations, etc. It poses no threat to my beliefs.

[d_rawk]

Birdy - yikes! What do Santa, Rudolph, chocolates with bows, etc.. have to do with Christ? Those have been cultural secular symbols of the holiday festivities, certainly, and there is no need at all to part with them (I don't think any serious voices are suggesting so). But if I'm going to get drunk and party my ass off with people, I'd rather do it inclusively, rather than have them have to meet me on my own terms (Christmas).

If it's a general holiday, open to all, then why adopt the exclusive language that is particular to a time when we were culturally exclusive?

I think Jesus is hot shit, and I think that as far as non-violent insurrections against global military empires go, he had it totally nailed down (pun only half-intended). But that's my thing. I think it important to not go overboard and accidentally alienate Christians, certainly (ollie's point taken), by why should I want to alienate my potential fellow merry makers, either?

should we not all sit around the table with white table clothes, no decorations, no special lighting, no centrepieces and dance to nothing but nelly furtado's promiscuous girl? but even that, i'm sure will serve to offend SOMEONE!

No, but it's probably not a good idea to use a nativity scene centrepiece, either. But you weren't going to do that anyways, so ....

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I think that's what I was trying to get at, Ollie. It's not a religious festival anymore, properly speaking. Why are we stuck with the language? Call it a holiday, simply.

[SmoothedShredder]

should we not all sit around the table with white table clothes, no decorations, no special lighting, no centrepieces and dance to nothing but nelly furtado's promiscuous girl?

I think you have Christmas confused with something else

How's about that for taking a quote otta context

[ollie]

Why are we stuck with the language?

Tradition. A nod to the past.

After we get rid of the language do we go after the nativity scene next? Change the colour scheme?

How would you redefine Christmas?

[d_rawk]

After we get rid of the language do we go after the nativity scene next?

In shared civic spaces? Probably, yes. Just as we went after the posting of the 10 Commandments in courts. In your home? No. Fuck no.

Can we get over all of this, and celebrate a multitude of disparate traditions, and no longer need to worry about nativity scenes in public spaces, because we will also have other symbols from other traditions in those same spaces and we can all enjoy our quirky differences? Hopefully! But we will have to first erase the stench of religious and cultural imperialism, and we aren't there yet.

Who is offended by Rudolph and Jingle Bells? (silence). Who is made uncomfortable by Silent Night in public places where, tentatively, they are supposed to feel included? (squirming in seats)

[ollie]

I think Jesus is hot shit, and I think that as far as non-violent insurrections against global military empires go, he had it totally nailed down (pun only half-intended). But that's my thing. I think it important to not go overboard and accidentally alienate Christians, certainly (ollie's point taken), by why should I want to alienate my potential fellow merry makers, either?

Who's being alienated? Do you have to show proof of baptism to buy a Christmas tree? I certainly don't feel alienated as an agnostic.

I think we need to give people credit for having thicker skin.

[ollie]

Who is offended by Rudolph and Jingle Bells? (silence). Who is made uncomfortable by Silent Night in public places where, tentatively, they are supposed to feel included? (squirming in seats)

Silent Night makes non-Christians squirm? I am unaware of this phenomenon.

I mean, we didn't ban rock lyrics in the '80s to appease Christians. But we should we sanitize their music so as not to offend non-Christians?

[d_rawk]

I mean, we didn't ban rock lyrics in the '80s to appease Christians. But we should we sanitize their music so as not to offend non-Christians?

No, it shouldn't be sanitized. Christmas should be celebrated openly, honestly, loudly and proudly. But I don't think it should be the defacto, dominating lens through which all festivities are filtered. And it shouldn't be the language of the civil state. It doesn't need to be overbearing to be enjoyed.

I'm with you on Christmas tree. It's a Christmas tree. But if I'm putting together a work party, I think it's unnecessarily insensitive to call it a Christmas party. Even if everyone has thick enough skin to not take it personally, what does it say about my level of respect for them? And if I do legitimately respect them, and am doing it simply as a matter of acting out cultural norms, isn't there some value in stopping for a moment and evaluating those norms?

Don't I want to make a point of recognizing those who fall outside the narrow language of my own personal traditions? Shouldn't the state in a proudly multicultural country?

[ollie]

Don't I want to make a point of recognizing those who fall outside the narrow language of my own personal traditions? Shouldn't the state in a proudly multicultural country?

I'm more of a melting pot person. Maybe that explains our differences.

I like my country to have an identity and I fear it may be lost if we continue to make concessions with our tradition. And by "our" I mean Judeo-Christian.

(And let me note again that I am neither a Jew nor a Christian.)

[Birdy]

Why are we stuck with the language? Call it a holiday, simply.

hahha.. you said it yourself! WHY ARE WE STUCK WITH THE LANGUAGE?

is christmas not just ANOTHER WORD? does it not have a different meaning to you and to me and to joe shmoe down the road? i think rarely ANYONE upon hearing christmas these days thinks of the birth of jesus christ! christmas now is about santa claus and mistletoe and snowmen and shopping malls. WHO CARES WHAT WE CALL IT! AGAIN, IT'S A WWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDD.

i think once society stops placing so much damn emphasis on political correctness and really gets over themselves and realizes the ridiculousness of it all, we can make some headway. i don't think the answer to this, nor do i want the answer to this to be eighteen other 'scenes' next to the one nativity scene to make us ALL feel comfortable. i think rather we should really take a good solid look at what exactly it is about us as human beings that get so easily offended by terminology and work towards changing that!!

SHEESH! are you guys all for this woman having to take down her wreath? because in a micro way, this is the heart of the issue here!

can easter no longer be called easter? come to think of it, St. Patrick's day is a little exclusionary too... damn Irish, damn catholics.. what about the rest of us? I want to go get wasted in a pub on march 17th, but damn if i drink to St. Patrick! I'm OFFENDED! You know, i'm not really a big fan of Victoria Day either, she wasn't my queen! I vote to change the may holiday to simply May 2-4 from here on out!! ooh.. what about halloween? traditionally a pagan festival.. what about all of us religious folk.. i'm OFFENDED! no MORE HALLOWEEN parties.. just cuz i want to get drunk and include ALLLLLLLLL of my friends.

sheesh... i'm really shaking my head at some of these comments posted this afternoon.

[MarcO]

After we get rid of the language do we go after the nativity scene next?

In shared civic spaces? Probably, yes.

YES PLEASE!!!

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

I think it is important, at this cultural crossroads we're all standing at, to make things clear for ourselves and everybody around us. Sure, it's important to keep that Christmas sentimentality alive - our memories are treasures beyond compare - but truth be told, not that many people anymore have any deep connection with the religion, and every innovation in the tradition detached it further from its roots.

My real gripe is that this whole debate feeds so easily into the arguments of the Christian Right, that we need to affix Christianity as the centre of all things importantly Canadian. Fwiw, I've always loved the idea of seeing everybody getting in on the Krishna festival Holi in the spring, running around blasting one another in the streets with coloured water.

And yes, I do also appreciate how frustrating it is not to have NA Christian traditions, even if only 100 years old, snuffed under the weight of inclusivism. Fact is, I think most immigrants also recognise the season, and want to get in on it, if only to try out a new way to have fun in the most miserable time of the year.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Birdy - easy there. Are you telling me there are no words that can be bandied around that will make people uncomfortable, and that maybe, out of consideration, we should hold back on a bit?

Maybe Michael Richards was right on the money, that other night? Power to him?

[Birdy]

I'm with you on Christmas tree. It's a Christmas tree. But if I'm putting together a work party, I think it's unnecessarily insensitive to call it a Christmas party. Even if everyone has thick enough skin to not take it personally, what does it say about my level of respect for them? And if I do legitimately respect them, and am doing it simply as a matter of acting out cultural norms, isn't there some value in stopping for a moment and evaluating those norms?

i call it a Christmas party, because it is, a Christmas party.

There is a tree, there is a turkey, there will be gift giving, there will be some kind of *cough* holiday song, someone will dress up as santa claus and someone will get kissed under the mistletoe.

I think it would do us all wonders to respect the different definitions of words, respect them, and progress with them.

I often wonder if atheists work straight through the Christmas holidays?

spare me, word police.

Edited December 8, 2006 by Guest

[Birdy]

Birdy - easy there. Are you telling me there are no words that can be bandied around that will make people uncomfortable, and that maybe, out of consideration, we should hold back on a bit?

Maybe Michael Richards was right on the money, that other night? Power to him?

well, i do think that michael richards bit was taken a bit out of context, but i'm not going to get into that!

have you seen Borat DEM? did you laugh?

i'll chill out a bit.. but this particular issue really does fire me up. i just think that it would do the world WONDERS to ease up on getting so offended by something that really is just a WORD (!!). think about how ridiculous it is. it's a WORD! who cares what it means to you or to me? why do we get so offended? REALLY?

[ollie]

My real gripe is that this whole debate feeds so easily into the arguments of the Christian Right, that we need to affix Christianity as the centre of all things importantly Canadian.

I agree but this is not reason enough for me to abandon the debate. I guess it also bothers me that Christians seem to make up the one group that everyone dumps on without the perception of prejudice. Kind of like we have this mission to preserve the culture of our immigrants even if that requires ripping apart our own culture at the same time.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Well, that's modernity in a nutshell.

I'd like to think that Jesus would have approved, too, if we hadn't fucked it up so bad.