Contested Symbols

[Birdy]

Kind of like we have this mission to preserve the culture of our immigrants even if that requires ripping apart our own culture at the same time.

yup. i like to call it equaling out the playing field or getting all comfy and cozy.

s'funny. now we're all offended with the word 'majority'. and we promote equality, without ever giving consideration to the majority and their time honoured traditions.

it's like what happened to the caucasian male when affirmative action first abounded in all of it's glory.

good times.

here's a paint brush, now let's paint the world red.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Go to church often?

[Birdy]

i'm not sure i follow you DEM.

unless you're intending to be spiteful.

[ollie]

it's like what happened to the caucasian male when affirmative action first abounded in all of it's glory.

Well, I'm only talking about Christmas here.

I don't think I've been affected by affirmative action at all and still think being a white male is the most advantageous demographic to fall into when it comes to getting a job in Canada.

Turning this full circle, it's like Lowell Green's other favourite rant, that you can't get a job in the government without speaking french. Most of the positions in our office are "english essential" only and, department wide, english is still by far the business language of choice.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Sorry, no spite intended; I just get frustrated by claims to cultural continuity when the actual substance of the cultural references are missing.

I'm a little jumpy around this business. I could talk anybody's ear off on theology, but don't care to because I have largely left it behind. Without it, though, it seems there's nothing left but a vague cloak of identity, and that seems to me an odd path to go down.

Truth be told, there are plenty of traditions that I would love to call out loud, but can't. If I go strutting down Bank St. with a big dooby in my hand, what's bound to happen? Yet I find sharing a joint with a friend a far more meaningful experience than walking up to the front of a church to take communion with a bunch of strangers.

[Birdy]

I don't think I've been affected by affirmative action at all and still think being a white male is the most advantageous demographic to fall into when it comes to getting a job in Canada.

you're not affected by affirmative action, because we've basically done away with affirmative action! is it fair that the majority is to feel the victim?

I just get frustrated by claims to cultural continuity when the actual substance of the cultural references are missing.

i'm not talking about the cultural continuity of christianity, i'm talking about the cultural continuity of Christmas!

[ollie]

I don't think I've been affected by affirmative action at all and still think being a white male is the most advantageous demographic to fall into when it comes to getting a job in Canada.

you're not affected by affirmative action' date=' because we've basically done away with affirmative action! is it fair that the majority is to feel the victim?[/quote']

Oops... that's me you're quoting, not d_rawk.

Thing is... I don't feel like a victim! Just like I don't feel like a victim speaking only english in a bilingual city. Just like I don't think non-Christians should feel like victims of Christmas.

Basically, I wish we could remove the notion of being a victim for our society and just get on with things. It's a disservice to real victims that the word is co-opted so frequently.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

So, given that Christmas was deliberately set up to take over the old Roman solstice traditions, can't we call a spade a spade and run with that?

[ollie]

So, given that Christmas was deliberately set up to take over the old Roman solstice traditions, can't we call a spade a spade and run with that?

I am admittedly way over my head on this issue. Take my comments for what they're worth. Dave, I would really like to sit down with you one day and pick your brain.

Unfortunately, every time I see you in person my own brain is too pickled to think of anything coherent to ask.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

You too, eh?

[meggo]

i'll admit that some are evil to the bone.. you know, i really don't think there was any hope for say Charles Manson

not to say that he didn't end up "evil," but charles manson did have a really shitty childhood. he may not have been born so nasty. and i am in no way defending what he did.

i don't really understand the "it's just a word" argument. i use the following example because of a disturbing "discussion" i had with some grade 11 students today - how about the word "fag"? or "homo"? or "that's so gay"? those may be just words, but they certainly hurt people.

[hamilton]

i don't really understand the "it's just a word" argument. i use the following example because of a disturbing "discussion" i had with some grade 11 students today - how about the word "fag"? or "homo"? or "that's so gay"? those may be just words, but they certainly hurt people.

Words that are meant to hurt other people aren't just words. But words like "Christmas" aren't meant to hurt anyone - Christmas is just the name of the holiday, so in that sense it is just a "word".

In all fairness, if one group of people isn't allowed to call Christmas Christmas, then why should another group be allowed to call Kwaanza Kwaanza, or Yom Kippur Yom Kippur? Why don't we just rename all holidays by their dates?

hamilton's New Rules for Holidays:

1. If something is for Christmas, it keeps its name; a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree, because it is peculiar to Christmas.

2. Holidays are allowed to keep their names, because that is what they are called; it's what distinguishes them from other days. Christmas stays Christmas. Just because it has its origins in Christianity doesn't mean that it is still only a religious holiday, nor that it is inherently exclusive.

3. Businesses throwing staff parties in December must call them "Holiday Parties" because it is an inclusive term. Employees may be celebrating any number of holidays, so let's allow everyone to have their fun and feel included.

4. Similarly, employees in stores should use "Happy Holidays" when greeting people, and announcing "Holiday Sales". There's more than one holiday, and any given person should be celebrating any given holiday.

5. Conversely, parties in your own home can be Christmas parties if that's what you want them to be. You are celebrating, you are hosting the party; other people are being invited into your home to take part in your celebration. If you want to invite me to your Kwaanza party, I will go, without complaining that it should be a "holiday party" instead. I will have fun, and I will be thankful that you honoured me by inviting me to share in your happiness.

6. Taxpayer money should not be spent to erect Nativity scenes in public places, because they play only to the religious aspect of the holiday. The messsage on the side of the Hamilton escarpment should be "Happy Holidays", not "Merry Christmas". Everyone pays taxes, so it is ridiculous to use taxpayer money to celebrate a holiday that isn't observed by everyone.

[d_rawk]

Hamilton for prez.

[meggo]

Words that are meant to hurt other people aren't just words. But words like "Christmas" aren't meant to hurt anyone - Christmas is just the name of the holiday, so in that sense it is just a "word".

fair enough! and thanks for helping me out. my brain was extra-tired today.

[djmelbatoast]

if you're sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo considerate of others, shouldn't we just wipe everything that smells like christmas from the party menu? should we not all sit around the table with white table clothes, no decorations, no special lighting, no centrepieces and dance to nothing but nelly furtado's promiscuous girl? but even that, i'm sure will serve to offend SOMEONE!

You just described the party I've been planning.

Guess you're not invited.

Seriously though Santa Clause as we know it was invented by Coca-Cola. I don't need to see that shit everywhere I look the day after Halloween. Filthy consumorism at it's worst.

Jesus and the Virgin Mary can stay in the closet too. I'm very happy for all the religious people out there that beleive in magic fairy tales but y'all don't need to force your damn carols down my throat for two months.

Not to just shit on the Christians I beleive that secularization is a good and positve thing. If that woman had put up a cheap plastic,lite up lawn ornament of a man tied to a tree getting tortured to death there would not have been a problem. I prefer the equally empty gesture of a peace sign.

The idea that if we don't litter our communities with cheap plastic shit and waste valuable energy on tiny coloured lights we will end up in some Communist Science Fiction movie I find preposterous.

[Birdy]

let's burn books.

[Hux]

As a non religious person "Christian" I can’t imagine being offended by calling my party a holiday party rather than a Christmas party… but then again I want my Jewish and other non-Christian friends to feel comfortable, invited and welcome to come my home. Inclusion is more important than exclusion. Fuck all friends are welcome. This thread makes me want to say fuck. Fuck fuck fuck!

[Hux]

Oops the above is from Sugarmegs

[d_rawk]

(I don't know why I'm wading back into this ... I suppose because I'm bored at work ...)

spare me, word police.

This bothers me. Have you not noticed that both sides are playing at word cop?

The frustration for those who want to use a word like 'holiday' when it seems more appropriately accurate to do so, is that all of a sudden all of these (nominally) Christian white males start screaming from their TV and radio pulpits that we can't do that, because it just has to be Christmas. And god damn it, first they took the prayers out the schools, and now they want to be inclusive at city hall! (I've put up ornamental lights at city hall, by the way. Such things are fine there ... and you are quite welcome to call them Christmas lights, as you see fit)

Not to mention that often the people arguing why it has to has just GOT TO BE "Christmas" from one side of the mouth are lamenting the secularization of the holiday and how it just isn't about Jesus enough these days from the other.

If it is just a word, why get so worked up when someone says holiday? I think we are all being reactionary in the face of what we see as each others over the top reactions. And on and on it goes. Why get worked up over a "holiday tree" at Home Depot? Vote with your wallet and go buy a Christmas Tree somewhere else. I think it's stupid, too. They'll get the point. But I have no sympathy for these people who have enjoyed positions of complete priveledge their entire lives by being the right colour, and of the right religion, and the right orientation, from the right traditions having total meltdowns and screaming bloody murder every time they get a whiff that that position of priveledge might be threatened in some tiny way. Boo fucking hoo.

City hall is supposed to represent everyone, equally. As are the schools. It's just a word, after all, right?

[d_rawk]

Bushes Get Naughty!: White House Declares War On Christmas – Again!

In our continuing effort to keep readers informed about developments in the “War on Christmas,†we’d like to note the emergence of some new combatants: President George W. Bush and First Lady Laura Bush.

The White House 2006 holiday card is just out – and it does not once mention the word “Christmas.â€

The front of the card contains a watercolor drawing of the White House festooned with a Christmas tree, wreaths and lights (no creche!) covered by snow. Inside the greeting reads, “May the light of the season shine bright in your heart now and in the new year.â€

The card opens with a biblical passage – from the Old Testament. It quotes Psalm 119:105, “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.â€

Yesterday, The Wall of Separation told readers about efforts by Liberty Counsel, a legal group connected to the Rev. Jerry Falwell, to compile a list of “Naughty and Nice†retailers. According to Falwell, “Nice†retailers use the word “Christmas†on their Web sites and in ads, while “Naughty†ones use “Holiday.â€

How sad to see the president and his wife descend to the ranks of the “Naughty.†And what’s worse, this is at least the second year this fanatically anti-Christmas duo in the White House has slighted the December holiday. (Oops. I mean “slighted CHRISTMAS.†Sorry, Jerry.)

The White House’s 2005 card included “best wishes for a holiday season of hope and happiness†and again included a passage from Psalms.

What do the Bushes have against Christmas? Why are they afraid to use the word? More importantly, where is the outrage from Falwell, Pat Robertson, Tony Perkins, Bill O’Reilly and the entire Fox News Channel and the whole crew at the Alliance Defense Fund?

Are the same Religious Right groups that threw a fit because Banana Republic used the term “Holiday Sale†on it Web site going to allow the president of the United States – a man they insists sets the moral tone for the entire nation – continue to diss Christmas like this? Will no one save Christmas this year?

Americans United sends this urgent appeal to Falwell: As our nation’s unofficial “Christmas Czar,†it is up to you to put a stop to this outrage. The Bushes have heaped scorn on Christmas for two years running now. What are you going to do about it?

--Rob Boston

[Birdy]

(I don't know why I'm wading back into this ... I suppose because I'm bored at work ...)

spare me, word police.

This bothers me. Have you not noticed that both sides are playing at word cop?

The frustration for those who want to use a word like 'holiday' when it seems more appropriately accurate to do so, is that all of a sudden all of these (nominally) Christian white males start screaming from their TV and radio pulpits that we can't do that, because it just has to be Christmas. And god damn it, first they took the prayers out the schools, and now they want to be inclusive at city hall! (I've put up ornamental lights at city hall, by the way. Such things are fine there ... and you are quite welcome to call them Christmas lights, as you see fit)

Not to mention that often the people arguing why it has to has just GOT TO BE "Christmas" from one side of the mouth are lamenting the secularization of the holiday and how it just isn't about Jesus enough these days from the other.

If it is just a word, why get so worked up when someone says holiday? I think we are all being reactionary in the face of what we see as each others over the top reactions. And on and on it goes. Why get worked up over a "holiday tree" at Home Depot? Vote with your wallet and go buy a Christmas Tree somewhere else. I think it's stupid, too. They'll get the point. But I have no sympathy for these people who have enjoyed positions of complete priveledge their entire lives by being the right colour, and of the right religion, and the right orientation, from the right traditions having total meltdowns and screaming bloody murder every time they get a whiff that that position of priveledge might be threatened in some tiny way. Boo fucking hoo.

City hall is supposed to represent everyone, equally. As are the schools. It's just a word, after all, right?

i look at it like this.

words are random. throughout the centuries they've changed and taken on different meanings. one word to me, might mean a completely different thing to someone say in madagascar! at one point, they didn't even exist. you take the word 'fag', and perhaps half the free world, probably even more, doesn't understand the negative connotation it holds towards homosexuals. (am i allowed to use the word homosexual?) it is we as a society who assigns these negative connotations to words, and we as a society who uphold them, in our continual recognization of them as 'bad words', 'swear words', 'words that are intended to hurt someone'! they're random sequences of the man-made alphabet!! they're JUST WORDS! instead of focusing on the negative, focus on the positive.. stand up, recognize the simplicity of it all, and in doing that, recognize the part of you that let's yourself get so offended by complete randomness, and work towards changing that! it just seems that the more we move towards equalling out the playing field, the more bland or generic things become/are becoming. i'm sure if some people had their way we wouldn't sing 'O CANADA!" in the classroom either. i'm sure that day is coming.

and d-rawk, it's not just these christian white males who are taking up this cause, i am too!!! it's not about religion, it's not about racism, it's about expression.

you're right, 'holiday' is a word, but just knowing that it's society's noname, generic answer in an effort to censor, is enough for me to pick up the cause.

again, let's burn books.

[Birdy]

Bushes Get Naughty!: White House Declares War On Christmas – Again!

In our continuing effort to keep readers informed about developments in the “War on Christmas,†we’d like to note the emergence of some new combatants: President George W. Bush and First Lady Laura Bush.

The White House 2006 holiday card is just out – and it does not once mention the word “Christmas.â€

The front of the card contains a watercolor drawing of the White House festooned with a Christmas tree, wreaths and lights (no creche!) covered by snow. Inside the greeting reads, “May the light of the season shine bright in your heart now and in the new year.â€

The card opens with a biblical passage – from the Old Testament. It quotes Psalm 119:105, “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.â€

Yesterday, The Wall of Separation told readers about efforts by Liberty Counsel, a legal group connected to the Rev. Jerry Falwell, to compile a list of “Naughty and Nice†retailers. According to Falwell, “Nice†retailers use the word “Christmas†on their Web sites and in ads, while “Naughty†ones use “Holiday.â€

How sad to see the president and his wife descend to the ranks of the “Naughty.†And what’s worse, this is at least the second year this fanatically anti-Christmas duo in the White House has slighted the December holiday. (Oops. I mean “slighted CHRISTMAS.†Sorry, Jerry.)

The White House’s 2005 card included “best wishes for a holiday season of hope and happiness†and again included a passage from Psalms.

What do the Bushes have against Christmas? Why are they afraid to use the word? More importantly, where is the outrage from Falwell, Pat Robertson, Tony Perkins, Bill O’Reilly and the entire Fox News Channel and the whole crew at the Alliance Defense Fund?

Are the same Religious Right groups that threw a fit because Banana Republic used the term “Holiday Sale†on it Web site going to allow the president of the United States – a man they insists sets the moral tone for the entire nation – continue to diss Christmas like this? Will no one save Christmas this year?

Americans United sends this urgent appeal to Falwell: As our nation’s unofficial “Christmas Czar,†it is up to you to put a stop to this outrage. The Bushes have heaped scorn on Christmas for two years running now. What are you going to do about it?

--Rob Boston

where'd this article come from d-rawk? i find the whole evangelical/preacher man, fox news, ultra-right winger spin that people put on this subject really interesting.

whatever you have to do to make your case, i suppose.

:crazy:

[SmoothedShredder]

they're JUST WORDS! instead of focusing on the negative, focus on the positive.. stand up, recognize the simplicity of it all, and in doing that, recognize the part of you that let's yourself get so offended by complete randomness, and work towards changing that!

I know I'm an arse hole for saying this... but speaking as someone who has taken words emotionally, and still would like to prescribe to what you said above... maybe you ought to take a bit of your own medicine?! Besides, I do think you're trying to accomplish this in your own way... though images of book burning perhaps are not the most postively persuasive technique.

I wish there were more lights on peoples homes... driving through Hamilton with a Dundasian last night, it was pointed out how few lights there are on peoples houses. I can relate to the reality that the de-christmafication of the winter soltice has led to a holiday apathy and the notion that a tradtion has come perilously close to ending.... but I hope this is only a trasition, and that within years we will once again have of filled the vacuum now created with all the holiday cheer we now seem to be prohibiting. I understand your frustration, but disagree with your solution.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Birdy, way to Godwin the thread!

Are there not occasions for you where you would not use certain words in order to not offend anyone? I would think that you do self-censor, like everybody with a conscience does, so I'm not sure where this is all coming from, unless it's a kind of libertarian thought-experiment.

[d_rawk]

they're JUST WORDS! instead of focusing on the negative, focus on the positive.. stand up, recognize the simplicity of it all, and in doing that, recognize the part of you that let's yourself get so offended by complete randomness, and work towards changing that! it just seems that the more we move towards equalling out the playing field, the more bland or generic things become/are becoming.

Erm, I'm not offended by the word Christmas at all. I rather like it and I'll enjoy my Christmas, thanks. I simply have no illusion that it should be thrust on anyone else.

where'd this article come from d-rawk? i find the whole evangelical/preacher man, fox news, ultra-right winger spin that people put on this subject really interesting.

I'm totally perplexed as to how you have managed to miss the entire context of the conversation (if evangelical/preacher men, fox news types screaming at the general public can be considered a conversation) over the years.

We clearly live in seperate worlds.

The Alliance Defense Fund's website is down at the moment, which is a shame as I was going to suggest that they could use someone with your tireless passion for the cause. No doubt their server succumbed to the impossible demands of correct-thinking, God-fearing citizens everywhere desperate to know who to boycott next, or which liberal politicians are making angels cry this year.

Enjoy the warm glow of your burning books. And Merry Christmas