Green exclusion

[phishtaper]

Do you think Harper would really skip the debates if May was allowed? That would only hurt him wouldn't it?

i think so (it would hurt him, I mean). call the fool's bluff.

Edited September 10, 2008 by Guest

[AD]

Joe Clark's editorial in the Globe today. I bolded some sections that I especially agree with.

The immediate question about Canada's election is not who will win, but how open and inclusive the campaign will be.

Elections can confirm bad practices, or change them. Ours need changing.

The tone of federal politics today is the worst I can remember in my 50 years in public life. Of course, there were angry partisan differences before, but they were tumultuous exceptions to a general rule of common public purpose, even civility. By contrast, the standard today has become consistently bitter and negative - personal invective routinely displaces any serious discussion of issues or differences.

This low standard helps corrode respect for the democratic institutions in which this mean drama plays out. It comes at a bad time, because there has been a general decline in the reputation of politicians, parties, legislatures and other institutions. Cynicism grows. Candidates are hard to attract. Citizens turn away from politics - especially young people, who see nothing to attract or inspire them. That constitutes a long-term threat to the authority of the pan-Canadian political institutions that have always been essential for citizens of this diverse democracy to act positively together.

Obviously, Canada is not the only democracy whose parties and leaders are losing their constituency. But what is striking - now that a Canadian election has been crammed into the shadow of a U.S. presidential campaign - is that we (who preach so much) are continuing our decline, while the American system (which we routinely deride) has broken away emphatically from "business as usual." In choosing their candidates for president, both American parties reached deliberately beyond their status quo - the Republicans to independent voters who admire John McCain, the Democrats to the young and the idealists who are inspired by Barack Obama.

What might Canada do to break out of our mean political cycle, between now and Oct. 14? One option appears to have been shut down on Monday, with the refusal to allow the Green Party's Elizabeth May to participate in the leaders debates.

That should be reconsidered. Her participation would demonstrate that Canadian politics is inclusive, not exclusive. Ms. May shares essential democratic attributes with both Mr. Obama and Mr. McCain - the outsider, the person the party establishments sought to exclude, the person with a message that resonates with citizens who've grown cynical about, or disaffected from, their political system.

I've participated in televised debates, both leading the party that went on to win the election, and leading a "fifth" party. Those debates do not, in themselves, determine election results. But they do allow voters - the citizens who decide our country's future - to hear the arguments, assess the candidates and make informed decisions.

This would not be a free ride for the Green Party. Ms. May would have to prove herself and make her case, just like other party leaders. But now, unlike those other leaders, she alone is denied that right.

We're not talking about the Rhinoceros Party. In the 2006 general election, the Greens won 665,940 votes, nearly 5 per cent of the total. Polls published this month by Segma, Ekos and Environics indicate that support for the Greens runs between 7 per cent and 10 per cent, even though the party has never been allowed to make its case in a national leaders debate. In nine provinces and three territories, the Greens have much more support than the Bloc Québécois, which is not only invited to the debates but has the power to veto other participants.

No law forbids Ms. May from joining the other leaders in a televised debate, just as no law forbade Mr. Obama or Mr. McCain from launching their improbable campaigns for a presidential nomination. Instead, the rules that keep her out are determined, in effect, by the political parties that are already in. Technically, the decision is taken by a consortium of the broadcasters who would carry the program; but, in announcing the decision to shut out Ms. May, that consortium has made it clear that the real veto is exercised by the other political parties.

So, it's a club, whose members set their own rules.

Jason MacDonald, a spokesman for the network consortium, is quoted as saying that three parties - those led by Stephen Harper, Jack Layton and Gilles Duceppe - all opposed the participation of Ms. May in the so-called leaders debate, "and it became clear that if the Green Party were included, there would be no leaders debates."

That's blackmail. If these three men want to boycott a genuine debate, let them have the courage to do so openly. Let them also explain why, in a year when U.S. party establishments could not shut out an Obama or a McCain, it is appropriate for the Canadian party establishments to muzzle a significant voice for change.

I am not a supporter of any of the existing federal parties, including the Greens. But I am alarmed, and surprised, by how tightly the government now controls Parliament, how easily parties put their own interest ahead of the public interest, and how mean our public debate has become. We have to break that pattern, and one way to begin would be with a more inclusive leaders debate. I urge more Canadians to press these three leaders, and the broadcasting consortium they hide behind, to reconsider their exclusionary decision.

For Canadians concerned about democracy, the question is not why the Green Party should be let in. The question is: Why should the Greens be kept out?

[hamilton]

While I frequently disagreed with Mr. Clark's policies, I always thought he was an admirable and respectable individual. This letter is further proof of that.

His being admirable and respectable, I mean. Not my belief in him as being so.

[phishtaper]

its funny, the more i see and hear from joe who, long after he was PM, the more I like the guy.

i'll always believe he was way ahead of his time when he proposed an 18cents/gallon tax on gas to reduce the deficit. it was just too bitter a pill to swallow at that time, but he sure did have it right thinking that we should pay our own way and not dump a huge debt on our kids.

not that he's perfect, but he's much more a gentleman that harper could ever dream to be.

thanks for his editorial, AD

Edited September 10, 2008 by Guest

[AD]

The Green party had a better case for participating in the televised debates of the 2008 campaign than the Bloc Québécois and the Reform party in 1993. Having opened the door 15 years ago to parties that were blatantly not in the running for power, why did the networks not stand up for Elizabeth May in this campaign?

In the 1993 election, the established parties were just as opposed to the addition of new debate players as the NDP and the Conservatives are today. They brought at least one solid objection to the fore and it was the fact that neither the Reform party, nor the Bloc Québécois, could claim to be national parties.

Reform had not yet extended its wings east of Manitoba. Moreover, Preston Manning was not bilingual. In the end, it was decided he would limit himself to an opening statement in French. Lucien Bouchard, on the hand, was granted full participation rights in both debates, a privilege his successor enjoys to this day.

The Green party runs candidates in every province and May is fluently bilingual. Over the past 12 months, the Green score in the national polls has ranged from 7 per cent to 13 per cent. Support for the Bloc Québécois over the same period has never exceeded 9 per cent.

Since the last campaign, May's party has been shown to be more than a parking lot for the undecided, coming in ahead of the NDP and the Conservatives in a handful of by-elections.

Unlike the 1993 Bloc and Reform parties, the Greens have yet to win a single seat. To meet the threshold of parliamentary representation set by the networks, May took a back door, recruiting former Liberal Blair Wilson in the dying days of the last Parliament.

But if the Bloc had been made up only of floor-crossers, would Radio-Canada and TVA really have courted the ire of Quebecers by excluding Bouchard from the French-language debate? That is highly unlikely. And by the same token, thousands of westerners would have been up in arms over any attempt to exclude Manning.

Support for the Bloc and Reform was heavily concentrated in two given regions of the country.

In 1993, that allowed each of them to elect 50-plus MPs while the Progressive Conservatives, with more votes than the Bloc and almost as many as the Reform, were left with two seats.

The fact that Green supporters are spread out across Canada has made it easier to bar May from the debates. Part of the calculation was that the Greens were simply not in a position to mobilize efficiently against the decision, or to strike back forcefully at the ballot box.

That may turn out to be wrong. Since 1993, the Internet has changed the rules of the protest game. But the episode does raise two other substantial points.

It goes a long way to illustrate why electoral change has so little momentum among the country's political elite. In a proportional system, the above calculations could not apply; the Greens would already be a parliamentary force.

The episode has also prompted calls to place the debates under the election law. While there is cause to be wary of putting more of Canada's democratic life into a bureaucratic straitjacket, it does seem that the networks no longer have the journalistic backbone to arbitrate the debate over the debates.

[ollie]

Despite my smart comments earlier in the thread I do hope that Elizabeth May is allowed in the leaders debate. But even more I hope someone calls Stephen Harper's bluff and he has to sit at home watching on TV like the rest of us.

[SmoothedShredder]

If she does get included, it would be a good thing as it would mean our collective voices ARE heard by the governemnt, and that their inbreeding has not completely shut the little guy out.

[phishtaper]

But even more I hope someone calls Stephen Harper's bluff and he has to sit at home watching on TV like the rest of us.

but will he also have his pants down around his ankles?

[AD]

Isn't there a West Wing episode like this? (thinking hard, mining a spotty memory) Like one of the big two supports the third party being in the debates, but the other of the big two says they won't participate if that happens. So they are like 'fine, whatever, we'll have our own debate across the street and whoever wants to cover it is welcome.' leaving the other major party to either stand there at a podium alone with no-one to argue with or concede to let the third party in.

Fiction, of course, but food for thought.

Season 4, episode 3 - "College Kids"

[bradm]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/CanadaVotes/News/2008/09/10/6723716-cp.html

Liberal Leader Stephane Dion says Canada's largest broadcasters must explain precisely what position political leaders took in excluding the Green party from the televised election debates.

Dion framed the issue Wednesday as one of fairness and gender equity on a day when he was highlighting the Liberal party's record-sized slate of female candidates.

Aloha,

Brad

[ollie]

Dion framed the issue Wednesday as one of fairness and gender equity on a day when he was highlighting the Liberal party's record-sized slate of female candidates.

Oh please don't do that Mr. Dion. It only kills what little credibility you have left.

[AD]

it's not an issue of gender equity at all, i wish Dion and May herself would come to that realization and use it

[AD]

one leader down, two to go

NDP Leader Jack Layton has caved to growing public criticism and says he will not oppose Green Party Leader Elizabeth May taking part in the Oct. 2 televised leaders' debate.

Layton said he has found "the whole issue about debating about the debate" a distraction and says he will debate May or anyone else as long as Prime Minister Stephen Harper shows up.

That puts pressure on Harper, who threatened to pull out of the debate if May showed up. His argument was that May and Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion would be a tag team.

"I have only one condition for this debate and that's the Prime Minister is there," Layton told reporters after touring a solar panel manufacturing company.

"I don't want to be debating the debate forever. I want to debate the Prime Minister."

Earlier, Dion said Harper and Layton "don’t have the courage" to explain why they opposed including May in the televised leaders’ debate, and called for a full explanation of what happened from the coalition of broadcasters that made the decision to exclude May after consulting the parties.

Dion repeated his position that May “should be there – period.â€

[AD]

check that - looks like the Greens are in!!

The political path has been cleared for Elizabeth May to participate in the televised leaders debates after first NDP Leader Jack Layton and minutes later Conservative Leader Stephen Harper withdrew threats to boycott.

The reversals could be a pivotal point in this federal election campaign.

Dogged by protesters and divisions within the ranks of his own party, Mr. Layton told reporters during a visit to a solar-panel company here Wednesday that the debate about the debate has become an unwanted distraction.

“I have only one condition for this debate, that the Prime Minister is there, because I want to debate the issues with him,†said Mr. Layton. “I don't want to be debating the debate forever.â€

Mr. Layton's change of heart put the onus squarely on the shoulders of Mr. Harper to decide where the block against Ms. May will remain.

Conservative spokesman Kory Teneycke then said the Tories were dropping their opposition to Ms. May participating in the debate.

“Our point of principle doesn't change but . . . we would not boycott the debate,†Mr. Teneycke said.

“We don't think she should be there. But if the NDP have decided they're changing their position, we will not stand alone.â€

Ms. May shouted with joy in her New Glasgow, N.S. campaign office as she watched CTV Newsnet report that the Conservatives had backed down from their threat to boycott the debates if the Green leader was invited.

Ms. May said she now awaits an invitation to the debates from the consortium of broadcasters.

“I think it's fair to infer that at this point the consortium must accept that there are no legitimate grounds on which to exclude the Green Party from the televised leaders debate,†she told the Globe and Mail.

“I look forward to an invitation from the consortium for Green Party representatives to participate in the negotiation of the format and the questioning and I want to thank every single one of thousands and thousands and thousands of Canadians who cared enough about democracy to protest the initial decision that I would not be included.â€

Liberal Senator Jim Munson said the announcements showed his party had been correct to accept the Green presence.

“Let the record show we were on the side of the angels,†he said.

The dramatic turn-about came in the early afternoon of a fiery Day 4 on the election campaign, a day that served up policy announcements and pointed barbs aplenty.

Mr. Harper has vowed to completely withdraw Canadian troops from Afghanistan in 2011 – a promise that goes beyond a Parliamentary motion this year which merely committed to pull soldiers out of Kandahar province.

Military analysts have warned it's a bad idea strategically to set a definite end date for withdrawing from Afghanistan but Mr. Harper says he thinks even the Canadian military wants to quit the country in 2011.

“The mission as we have known it – we intend to end it,†Mr. Harper said.

The NDP and Conservatives also presented very different approaches to dealing with the ailing manufacturing sector.

As Ford Motor Co. announced plans to eliminate about 500 jobs at its assembly plant in Oakville, Ont., Mr. Layton outlined an $8-billion spending program to create 40,000 new jobs to replace those lost in the weakened industrial economy.

“The manufacturing sector has been hit hard,†Mr. Layton said out front of the giant General Motors plant in this industrial city east of Toronto where a thousand jobs were lost in January and more are on the block.

“Jobs are disappearing overseas. (Conservative Leader Stephen) Harper is doing nothing and proposes to do nothing more.â€

However the Conservative Leader had frank words for Canadians who have lost their jobs in recent months and years as the economy slowed, saying Ottawa cannot assure people their jobs are safe.

“I think you have to be honest with people: the government can't go in and say ‘We can guarantee your job',†he said. “We can't protect your job.â€

“There is no point in telling people we can solve all the problems of Ford. Ford is going to have to manage some of them.â€

Meanwhile the Bloc Québécois found itself under a double-barrage as both separatists and Conservatives kicked into the sovereigntist part.

Jacques Brassard, a former Parti Québécois minister on the provincial stage, launched his tirade in a Montreal newspaper, arguing that the Bloc is losing touch with a number of Quebeckers, while the Conservative Party increased its attacks on the Bloc by pointing out that it has made over 1,000 promises since 1990.

“A vote on the Bloc is a wasted vote – Quebeckers are already realizing the Bloc can't deliver, and are already turning their back on this powerless party,†Conservative candidate and former senator Michael Fortier said.

And Newfoundland and Labrador's Premier Danny Williams launched his sharpest broadside yet at Mr. Harper, saying a Harper majority “would be one of the most negative political events in Canadian history.â€

“When we vote, I would rather that we stand on the solid ground of principles than on the shaky ground of broken promises,†Mr. Williams told a business lunch in St. John's. “If you believe the country deserves better, then you know what to do.â€

But for Green Party Leader Elizabeth May, the day just got better and better. Wednesday morning began with a flurry of support from people on the campaign trail in Nova Scotia.

That was quickly followed up by Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion saying he would call the five-network consortium that runs the debates — CBC, Radio-Canada, CTV, Global and TVA — to ask for an explanation of Ms. May's exclusion in the televised leaders debates for Oct. 1 and 2.

The New Democrats and the Conservatives had said earlier this week that they would not participate if Ms. May were allowed on the stage.

But Mr. Layton rescinded that threat Wednesday afternoon. “If the Prime Minister is there, I will be there, period,†he said.

[phishtaper]

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!

[mattm]

Why'd the NDP not back her? Are they afraid of the green party? Just curious...

[AD]

Fuck the Cons are retarded. See bolded sentences

TORONTO - Green Leader Elizabeth May will participate in the leaders' debate after the Conservatives and NDP dropped their opposition to her appearance in the broadcasts.

Moments after the Tories backed down Wednesday, the broadcast consortium told May she would be welcome at the English and French debates Oct. 1-2 in Ottawa.

"If the NDP has decided to change its position, we would not stand alone," said Prime Minister Stephen Harper's chief spokesman, Kory Teneycke. "We've made our point."

May said she was pleased after hearing that NDP Leader Jack Layton and Harper had backed down, calling it a "delightful change in circumstances."

She said she was very grateful to the thousands of Canadians who complained on websites, phone-in radio shows, right across the country to protest the decision to exclude her from the debate.

"Without the support of the people of Canada, this simply would not have happened, and I am very grateful," May said in an interview with Canwest News Service. "There's been a constant stream of people into my office. When I stand at busy corners in the mornings, people roll down their windows and say, 'Harper's scared of you, we're not going to let this stand.'"

But in a mischievous move, the Conservatives initially said they would try to convince the broadcast consortium that Peter MacKay, who is running against May in the Nova Scotia riding of Central Nova, should also be part of the debate. The Liberals have a deal with the Greens not to run a candidate in the riding.

Teneycke said it would only be fair to have MacKay there, given that Liberal Leader Stephane Dion's "Central Nova candidate" will participate.

"We think it's a reasonable proposal."

Teneycke later clarified that MacKay's participation was not a "deal-breaker" as far as allowing May in the debate.

The consortium announced Monday that the Green party would not be included in the two televised debates because the other federal parties opposed the idea.

May said she would launch legal action on the grounds that three other leaders said they would boycott the show if she were allowed to share the stage. She accused the party leaders of preserving an "old boys club."

Dion said Monday that he supported May's inclusion but that he would not attend the debates if Harper boycotted. Harper said Monday, before the consortium's decision was released, that it would be unfair to allow May to join the other leaders on the national stage because she is too closely tied to the Liberals. He also predicted she would officially endorse Dion before voters go to the polls on Oct. 14. Dion and May have agreed not to run candidates in each other's ridings, but May said Harper's line of argument was "absurd."

The TV networks in the consortium are CBC, Radio-Canada, CTV, Global Television and TVA in Quebec.

[The Chameleon]

Awesome! I am glad this happened. I was very dismayed that someone as progressive as Layton was opposed to this. I am glad the Canadian people spoke up and demanded this!

This would never have happened in the U.S.

:content:

[ollie]

This would never have happened in the U.S.

Ross Perot anyone?

[phishtaper]

Awesome! I am glad this happened. I was very dismayed that someone as progressive as Layton was opposed to this. I am glad the Canadian people spoke up and demanded this!

i like to think that my email to jack helped him change his mind.

well, mine and the other 10,000 that said "Jack, WTF!?"

[d_rawk]

This is excellent and as it should be. Hopefully not too much time is wasted trying to back May into a corner over her position on abortion.