Tolerance of Racism?

[Thorgnor]

wow

what do want?

[M.O.B.E]

In this thread you have called me a hypocrite and questioned my integrity, those are insults, they are personal, and they were unnessecary for the purpose of either debate or discussion.

I posted this so you could read it, if you learned nothing, tough. I created the thread, you add to it other than to try and "knock me off my high horse" which if you knew me, other than by a glance and a "goofy grin", would seem pretty ridiculous.

Perhaps I posted this as a heads up for those who may not have heard of it.

Wow, this coming from the one who called me a rascist for posting the article I posted about Obama. I do recall you didnt even want to have anything explained to you at that time so I wont even go there now but, my reasons for sharing that were the same reasons you just mentioned above.

Those who come to pass judgement today, shall return tommorow to be scorned.

[SaggyBalls]

I suppose in this topic revolving around use of words, much of this comes from imprecise communication skills, their intention, and the intentions of those that use those words.

I don't need any of this to boil down to actual bickering. When someone posts something, defends it, and doesn't really have anything to say about the discussion that results from it, another doesn't need to beat that dead horse.

[Thorgnor]

You guys are so much better than me.

Really, thank you.

M.O.B.E. I do see what you're saying and perhaps I jumped the gun in saying you ARE racist. But if you remember I also said that I am, despite obvious efforts to fight it in myself. What I was responding to were ideas in the article that were motivated by percieved racial differences. My issue was that without contextualising the article, and by presenting it as if it were written by you (intentionally or not) you were giving a louder and more widely heard voice to ideas that are racist.

I've never questioned your kindness.

YT, your bait works well, but if you're trying to proove I'm an asshole, your only going to proove that we both can be.

Which horse are we beating now, mine or yours?

Edited January 13, 2009 by Guest

[phishtaper]

i saw a woman beat a horse in Amsterdam once. or, maybe it was a donkey. dunno.

carry on ...

[ollie]

In the study, students who think they are waiting for an experiment to begin are exposed to racism. Specifically, a white confederate makes a racist comment about a black confederate when he briefly leaves the room. When he returns, the actual participant is asked to choose a partner to work with on a subsequent exercise.

Why is the discussion of racism so often described in terms of a white male perpetrating the act? Would have been more interesting if they included a few more control groups.

[ollie]

i saw a woman beat a horse in Amsterdam once. or, maybe it was a donkey. dunno.

Did she then eat it live?

[Thorgnor]

I think maybe the study was trying to show that the acceptance of racism by people within a group (Whites for instance) against another group (Blacks for instance) doesn't drive a wedge between people of the same group (White Canadians) as often as we would expect it to. But I see your point.

[phishtaper]

i saw a woman beat a horse in Amsterdam once. or' date=' maybe it was a donkey. dunno.[/quote']

Did she then eat it live?

not in the food forum sense of the word ...

[Thorgnor]

WTB/WTS?

[SaggyBalls]

Why is the discussion of racism so often described in terms of a white male perpetrating the act? Would have been more interesting if they included a few more control groups.

To make us feel terrible for the centuries of savage oppression and the privelege that it's bought us...cause the only way to oppress us is to get us to oppress ourselves.

Democratic Oppression. Only the martyr gets the nice guy vote.

[d_rawk]

Oppress, though?

Privilege gained by boots on faces is ultimately illegitimate. Being aware of the scales, and what is weighing them in one direction as opposed to the other, isn't an unworthwhile pursuit. Particularly while enjoying those gains, and being in a unique position to effect change by having inherited the machinery of power through all of that injustice.

Is it all about getting 'us' to oppress 'ourselves' or is it all about ending oppression, to the extent that such may even be possible, full stop?

[SaggyBalls]

it's not *all* about self oppression, but without enough perspective, that is often the result.

the nature of oppression is a much farther reaching issue than racism, as that is only one kind of oppression - and in this instance, it's not really aptly labelled oppression.

I would think it's more 'regression' than 'oppression' when it gets to the racist comment stage.

Or is the act of racism oppressing the respondant by edging him/her into an uncomfortable position?

So who's the real victim of racism? The person the comment is made about or the person the comment is made to?

Is it up to us to fight the oppression by standing up to it vocally at the time or is it more important to find a way to fight that oppression in other ways?

I remember getting onto a bus in Vancouver a few years ago where there was a loudmouth drink native guy that was spouting out at the bus driver. a few people got on and he kept on yelling and saying rude things to passengers. Then this striking african woman in a dress got on and he started to make comments to her cause she looked uncomfortable with his behaviour. he started making comments to her and about her.

She was entirely uncomfortable. Looked like such a nice girl too.

I got tired of glaring at the guy and told him to shut the fuck up. A few times. He eventually did.

Now...although the guy made that woman feel uncomfortable, was she 'oppressed' or was that native guy oppressed by his own thought forms and attitudes?

Would she have been any less oppressed if he hadn't used racial slurs? not likely.

Would he have been less oppressed if he hadn't used those racial slurs? what could he have said? she didn't look slutty, or unkept. nothing would've made sense in that vein to make light of or to attack.

He wouldn't really have anythng to complain about or yell at, and all that was left was a mostly male ridership on that bus. the only other options I'd think he'd have would be to pick a fight...and he would have been dropped to the ground on a moving bus with metal hand holds.

A drunk guy can yell and yell and yell, but start him crying and once it's mostly out of him he'll probably try to make a friend.

Racism is definitely a symptom of an overall sick society.

Since every issue has polrized viewpoints, would it not be fair to say that in legitimizing racism as the 'oppression' or 'disrespect' that we need to focus on and eradicate heavy-fisted, the existance of that viewpoint will lead some - even if it's a very small umber of people - to take that polarized perspective?

the 'drive out racism' angle is exclusive and does nothing to help heal those that need the healing. racists are unwell and deserve to be helped.

'oh this is so bad - this terrible thing is happening allthe time - it's so scary - bad things are happening bad things are happening - waaa'

THAT is oppression.

'look at these sad people - how can we make sure that people are not sad and excluded'

THAT is progress.

who really wants to get along and who wants to feel morally superior while not helping people be their equals?

Edited January 15, 2009 by Guest
waaah.

[Thorgnor]

If someone suggested the Earth was flat, and sincerely held that belief, and was planning a sailing trip, would you not in their best interest try to inform them that they were incorrect and should do more research before embarking? Or is that oppressing their freedom of belief?

My point is that as long as race is a point of distinction between and amongst people, there will be views motivated by percieved racial difference. Letting that continue isn't helping anyone.

No one is saying we have to call a bigot an asshole, what I'm saying is that politely pointing out that race ndoes not exist except socially speaking might get us further than ignoring when peopler make each other feel oppressed because of their identity. Race is a massive part of the inequality in our system, although connected to ideas such as gender and class oppression, it is distinct and is absolutely necessary to study.

When racist acts and words are condoned by inaction, violence is done on us all. But systemic violence is more than comments, it is the deprivation of the adequate education from those who hold racist beliefs. If we allow their ignorance to fester, we contribute to the inequality and the deprivation of education from those who obviously need it most. By not speaking up we democratically sustain the systemic violence and hegemonies that perpetuate racism. Silence, by context, is a vote. Aiding and abetting.

IMO

[phishtaper]

Ive been dealing with the York University Office of Research Ethics on a study Im working on with a colleague at York. My experience with the Office is that it is very rigid and conservative in what sorts of research it approves. So, Im a bit surprised that it would have given the OK for this study to go ahead. Based on the newspaper, it seems like quite provocative experimentation.

Quite an interesting study, though. I just grabbed a copy of the article and will have a look at it.

[Thorgnor]

I was a little surprised too. It's always been hard to get approval for research at York, especially with human subjects/informants. I'm in anthropology and we barely get out of the classroom, but there's people there too I guess.

[SaggyBalls]

My point is that as long as race is a point of distinction between and amongst people, there will be views motivated by percieved racial difference. Letting that continue isn't helping anyone.

Aren't you in anthropology? Race is a point of distinction between and amongst people. It's how we approach that difference and distinction to grow and prosper together that will move us forward instead of continuing to pretend that there's no differences between people culturally and physiologically.

We can make it a positive or continue to be oppressed and marginalized by racism.

what I'm saying is that politely pointing out that race ndoes not exist except socially speaking might get us further than ignoring when peopler make each other feel oppressed because of their identity.

Race does exist...thinking more about it, I feel more oppressed by those that make the racist comments about other races because it makes me think in a way which is incongruous with my spirit

Race is a massive part of the inequality in our system, although connected to ideas such as gender and class oppression, it is distinct and is absolutely necessary to study.

Agreed. I don't, however, see this study as bringing anything new into light. It's merely proving us right, and as a 'new study' it's sort of a misnomer.

When racist acts and words are condoned by inaction, violence is done on us all.

Admirable notion, but 'violence'? - that's a bit of a stretch.

Maybe 'Harm' or 'disrespect' but not violence at least not as I see 'violence'.

But systemic violence is more than comments, it is the deprivation of the adequate education from those who hold racist beliefs.

I would say it's not a deprivation of education, but an introduction of miseducation. These people aren't hidden from anti-racist education but perpetuate mistrust and misunderstanding.

If we allow their ignorance to fester, we contribute to the inequality and the deprivation of education from those who obviously need it most.

And how would we 'fight the festering of ignorants'?

Who are we depriving of an education?

By not speaking up we democratically sustain the systemic violence and hegemonies that perpetuate racism.

That's a matter of opinion and needs further study to be systematically verified. You'll never get the funding to study that as in depth as it would require to be proven, and while this study proved a simple understanding right, that one would demand a lot more attention to detail than I bet even you could give, TB.

Silence, by context, is a vote. Aiding and abetting.

Silence is a non-vote - and even as it's not a vote, it does nothing to slow the motion and momentum of ignorance.

While it can be perceived to have a similar effect, it is quite different, and while the non-voter does no service to humanity by saying nothing, the non voter does no dis-service to anyone but his or herself.

[Thorgnor]

Somehow I knew that after a day or two, you'd have time to sit and think about why every single statement that I have made is wrong... and boy am I a better person for it. Thanks again genius.

Ashley Montague, 1964 - "Race is man's most dangerous myth."

"However, the consequences of the discourse on race and the social relations within which it has been embedded for the past two centuriescannot be ignored. Human societies continue to function as if races do exist. Racial differentiation continues to affect all areas of social interaction. For all practical purposes, then, race is not so much a biological phenomenon as a social myth that has had devastating consequences as one of the most important causes of human inequality." Carol Tator and Frances Henry, 2006.

Stokely Charmichael and Charles Hamilton - Racism is "the predication of decisions and policies on considerations of race for subordinating a racial group"

more Tator and Henry ""The term 'systemic' racism came to mean any form of discriminatory policy or practice in a system, whether advertent or inadvertent."

Further regarding democratic racism... "Efforts to combat racism that require intervention to change the cultural, social, economic, and political order will lack political support. More importantly, they will lack legitimacy, according to the egalitarian principles of liberal democracy."

Our freedoms are trapped by our cultural valuations... likewise to our view of someone's skin colour, it isn't our skin that tells us they are different, it is our experience, and our differences of socio-historical context, aka our culture's that teach us to expect differences based on "race".

and finally, "Democratic racism allows individuals to hold and espouse liberal democratic values while believing and practising racialized ideology. This form of racism is often subtle, elusive, and insidious. It is usually invisible to White people and readily apparent to people of colour. Thus allegations of racism in organizations elicit anger, disbelief and pain." Tator and Henry.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Guest

[SaggyBalls]

So you're still harping on and on about how people are bad and I'm trying to inject that there's a need for people to find ways to utilize all of our collective and individual traits to be better.

While you might have good in mind and even if you can find quotes by respected published individuals that loosely back up your statements, that doesn't ultimitely make you correct about it. All you've tried to do is deflect my comments in a big pout. Are you even trying to understand? You're obviously no better for any of this.

At least I got a chance to think about this stuff again. I wish everyone else had the time to do the same.

[Thorgnor]

I just wish I could be as perfect as you.

[SaggyBalls]

how cute.

[Thorgnor]

So you're still harping on and on about how people are bad and I'm trying to inject that there's a need for people to find ways to utilize all of our collective and individual traits to be better.

While you might have good in mind and even if you can find quotes by respected published individuals that loosely back up your statements, that doesn't ultimitely make you correct about it. All you've tried to do is deflect my comments in a big pout. Are you even trying to understand? You're obviously no better for any of this.

At least I got a chance to think about this stuff again. I wish everyone else had the time to do the same.

The quotes weren't hard to find. They were half-written by one of my current prof's at York. I believe I'm doing well enough in Tator's class on Intercultural training skills, but there's always room for improvement, except in your case.

[SaggyBalls]

There's room - Improvement can sit on my lap.

So can you sweet stuff.

[Thorgnor]

awesome

[SaggyBalls]

I'm not trying to attack you, TB but want to make sure that I don't do anything to add to any potential social disease that misunderstandings people have about themselves and the world around them may cause.

If anything, I'm only sticking to my guns, as living quite a bit of my life in relative isolation for extended periods of time has given me a lot of space to reflect on some really important bits of personality.

Not trying to win - just shed some light into rarely noticed crevasses. Remember...if you poke around in there too much it can get a bit sticky.