SaggyBalls Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 It's violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdy Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 i think this requires an a-bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgnor Posted July 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Man is good but corrupted by his surroundings? Caught up in evil surroundings?People aren't Good or Bad or Racist, they are contextualised as such, and it's far easier to understand an action as motivated by Racism than it is to say that someone is a "Racist".Thing is, aside from starting fresh post-atomic-bomb, how do you change the way the world sees itself? to point out when someone is unknowingly, or unwittingly participating in Racialized discourses, or Racism, allows them the opportunity to see the violence they are commiting through their participation.If that fails we can continue down the Ghandi path and take a beating for the Gipper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Evil_Mouse Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Though the (possible) difference for Gandhi is that you have to be on the receiving end of that violence in order to best tweak the other's conscience. For second/third parties, it seems a lot more complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishtaper Posted July 16, 2009 Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 i think the gipper was just as likely to dish it out as he was to take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgnor Posted July 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2009 Ditto for Arjuna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaggyBalls Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Thing is, aside from starting fresh post-atomic-bomb, how do you change the way the world sees itself? to point out when someone is unknowingly, or unwittingly participating in Racialized discourses, or Racism, allows them the opportunity to see the violence they are commiting through their participation.How does that change the way the world sees itself?That just expresses how you see the world, T. That's a very different thing than doing something to change or even challenge perceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Evil_Mouse Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 doing something to change or even challenge perceptions.I'm confused, though - how does that actually happen, apart from putting something out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgnor Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaggyBalls Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 i think this requires an a-bomb.When one expresses what s/he sees the action is expression, not implementation.While there may be some sort of effect, the act of change is not pushed or even begun by the act of expression. It takes the other party to move towards the change.So really one can't actually change the world sees itself through expression alone.It will probably take your expression of what you see and an expression of what you WANT with someone that you could work with to act towards some tangible results.Sharing that kind of information demands someone accept what you're offering, which isn't really befitting of the essence of 'sharing' to me, unless it doesn't come of as criticism.Still confused, Dr. Mouse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Evil_Mouse Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 i think this requires an a-bomb. When one expresses what s/he sees the action is expression' date=' not implementation. While there may be some sort of effect, the act of change is not pushed or even begun by the act of expression. It takes the other party to move towards the change. So really one can't actually change the world sees itself through expression alone. It will probably take your expression of what you see and an expression of what you WANT with someone that you could work with to act towards some tangible results. Sharing that kind of information demands someone accept what you're offering, which isn't really befitting of the essence of 'sharing' to me, unless it doesn't come of as criticism. Still confused, Dr. Mouse?[/quote'] Um... yeah . How are you meaning "expression" - "just" words, as opposed to some other kind of action? Because words do all sorts of things beneath the surface on those who hear them. Hearing swearing, e.g., fires up parts of the brain involuntarily; saying "it's cold in here" can trigger someone to get up and close the window. I think everyone can agree that everything in the world isn't quite right, which is a possible path to healthy criticism if it means solving problems. It's identifying the problems clearly that seems to be the problem, and that does demand critical thinking. Am I following you right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaggyBalls Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Mouse - the WORDS are doing the action in that approach, not the speaker. They trigger the other person to act.Change the world or get it to change itself?The question was about the former.Solving problems isn't just identifying them, it BEGINS with identifying themSo to be fair to Thorgnor, he's starting things off so that other people can change things.Not that I'm entirely dismissive of that, but while it takes the understanding that identification itself does nothing to specifically create change but is certainly crucial in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgnor Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) So it's "crucial", but it doesn't help anything?...and here I thought you were all about the clarity ? Edited July 17, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaggyBalls Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 How is that at all unclear?If you want to be directly effective, then you're gonna have to do something other than point out racialized actions and attitudes and the fact that it can be intellectualized as violence.If you're happy hoping other people will do that work for you then keep on keepin' on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgnor Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Do these voices of criticism come as disembodied revelations, or do the people who speak them have any say in the matter? So then they're involved in the process?Little boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaggyBalls Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Which voices of criticism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamilton Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 How is that at all unclear?If you want to be directly effective, then you're gonna have to do something other than point out racialized actions and attitudes and the fact that it can be intellectualized as violence.If you're happy hoping other people will do that work for you then keep on keepin' on.Why don't you give an example, so that we can all understand what you are talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgnor Posted July 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaggyBalls Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 I'm talking about more direct impact than merely commenting about an issue.I'm not suggesting a particular action be taken, but all too often people think that words are enough to make things happen, when words only influence people to take action.Why don't you brainstorm some solutions if you're so concerned, hamilton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaggyBalls Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 (which voices?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Evil_Mouse Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 At this point, I'd also think this discussion would best be served by a particular example that could be worked on. I'd think it would be fine to run with Stone Mtn's case, but the given details of that have kind of been combed through as much as they can, not leaving too much left to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaggyBalls Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 How could this discussion be served by a particular example that could be worked on?Well since publishing the names of the owners of companies walks a fine line between boycott lists of the racist and a privacy uproar, how about finding a way to publicize the quality/return on investment of firms that represent a wide array of cultures?Perhaps a different case would be more useful.Either way, I don't really think the discussion would be served with an example, but someone that is planning a career path to eradicate racialized events might want/have some ideas.Who's the crusader here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgnor Posted July 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 (edited) nevermindcarry on Edited July 18, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaggyBalls Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 That was a lot simpler than I'd expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Evil_Mouse Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 Boo! Concrete examples rock! Reality over abstraction any day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts