Why Veganism won't and can't save the world.

[bradm]

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Aloha,

Brad

[timouse]

after watching Food Inc. i no longer eat meat unless I know where it came from. which means, that I am generally a vegetarian out of the house. I buy from a butcher in Ottawa that gets its meat from local farms. and don't eat crazy amouns of it, both from a health perspective, and from a cost perspective.

my wife recently read a book by Jonathan Safran Foer which has raised even more questions. particularly around the slaughtering of teh animals, even if they are raised in an ethical manner. and with respect to the treatment of hens and dairy cows. and even if the hens. chickens are treated well there is the questions of where the chicks came from.

so...some people are vegans just cause it's easier than always questioning where the stuff came from.

another issue is that we, in general, eat way too much meat. and that's partially cause it's so damn cheap....if you don't take into account the true costs.

and speaking of Jonathan Safran Foer:

the $200 burger

I would be raising chickens if I could.

was the book called Eating Animals? i really liked it. He was pretty blunt about the conditions that most meat is produced in. It's largely put me off of eating meat in restaurants too, or choosing restaurants that are up front about where they buy meat from.

Having animals has given me a whole new take on eating, of really appreciating where my food comes from. Eggs particularly. If you have the space and the inclination, chickens are awesome animals to have around. they go away in to the barn at night, and come out on their own in the morning, and roam around eating bugs and grass - and every 25 hours out pops an egg.

Link to our farm blog.

[phishtaper]

are vegans hypocrites if they wear leather shoes?

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

So they say. You hear of those vegans who won't buy certain publishers' books because they use animal fat in the binding. Power to them, I suppose; there are those Jains who wear gauze masks so that they won't accidentally inhale and kill the tiniest little critters. I dig that kind of attention to detail.

[timouse]

are vegans hypocrites if they wear leather shoes?

So they say. You hear of those vegans who won't buy certain publishers' books because they use animal fat in the binding.

[rant]

this is a vegan belief that i cannot reconcile.

one of many realities of omnivore society is a glut of animal products/byproducts. if you want to honour the sacrifice of an animal that gave it's all for the food system, make good use of its' hide.

vegans in plastic boots make me crazy.

[/rant]

[Hal Johnson]

Moral of the story - don't be deluded, we need animals to survive.

Or to slowly kill ourselves:

http://www.totalhealthbreakthroughs.com/2007/12/processed-meats-declared-too-dangerous-for-human-consumption/

(in reference to: http://www.dietandcancerreport.org/?p=recommendation_05 )

The World Cancer Research Fund (WCRF) has just completed a detailed review of more than 7,000 clinical studies covering links between diet and cancer. Its conclusion is rocking the health world with startling bluntness: Processed meats are too dangerous for human consumption. Consumers should stop buying and eating all processed meat products for the rest of their lives.

[SaggyBalls]

If we did a COMPLETE 180 and stopped murdering and imprisoning animals for our exploitation we would be able to get by...

...but we just wouldn't thrive quite as much (physiologically, anyway) and would have severe problems getting on track.

smoking and curing meats introduces carcinogens of course...but so do impure vegetables, GMOs, and margarine.

Commercially processed meats are bad. If you're willing to pay good money for small batched smoked and cured meats then great...but sale bacon is pretty delicious.

[Hal Johnson]

From everything I've read and learned, it seems that we would be able to get by phyisiologically just fine w/o meat. It would be harder, and take some effort, but it's doable.

But I hear ya about the butcher and local meat stuff - it would be much better than the current system.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Guest

[SaggyBalls]

Seems to me that when the phrase 'get by just fine' is used, the speaker is either confusing or masking modesty for/with poverty.

It would take a great amount of work in food science.

On the flip side, if we were to treat our animals and fish/wildlife with respect we could not only ethically and morally harvest the world but also have much better farms and STILL feed more people healthier than if we were to suddenly go veg.

Just because it's big doesn't mean it HAS to be a factory farm. People will need jobs and livelihoods in the coming years and agriculture could be our saving grace.

Not only with eggs, meat, and dairy, but with the epidemic of beehives dying off en masse we're going to have to pollenate crops too.

I truly hope that more people find a place in their diet for more vegetable matter, seeds, nuts, fruit, and meat alternatives...

...but thinking that soy can save the world is a very dangerous and shortsighted stance to take.

[Hal Johnson]

Seems to me that when the phrase 'get by just fine' is used, the speaker is either confusing or masking modesty for/with poverty.

Not sure what you mean by that.

What I meant was that you have to, for instance, combine different plant products to get the 9 essential amino acids that you would normally get from meat.

[SaggyBalls]

...And you have to prepare them to preserve those amino acids AND be able to metabolize them properly. Proper food combining is often based on the individual rather than just the ingredients.

I think that it's *possible* for us to thrive on a vegan diet but so few of us actually stick to it for the long term (as veganism is a relatively young movement) that it remains to be seen how it will grow/evolve.

It would be much easier, safer, and cost effective in the forseeable future to ensure people remain healthy with ethical farming practices and proper subsidies for FOOD CROP production to make high yield foods as cost effective for consumers as low yield CASH CROP derived 'foods' (what the heck do you call that stuff?).

Real whole foods?

Anyway, Hal - I'm not trying to change your (or anyone for that matter) stance on this. There are valid points on the side of the animal-free movement that will lend itself to the middle ground as well.

I'm glad I got my name on a free run organic turkey for this weekend. Same price per pound as a Butterball and it was raised down the road. It was cute as a chick and will be dee-lish tomorrow.

[Hal Johnson]

...Anyway, Hal - I'm not trying to change your (or anyone for that matter) stance on this. There are valid points on the side of the animal-free movement that will lend itself to the middle ground as well.

Fair enough. I guess Im just really intrigued by the whole issue. For example, I've lived with a vegetarian for almost 10 years now and I've observed her struggles during that time. My family (mostly extended, but to a certain extent the immediate as well) seems to be in denial of it. They will serve her dishes with meat all the time and when she reminds them that she's a vegetarian they all seem to act like she's a teenager who's just going through a phase.

I guess this has lead me to learn an awful lot about it on my own and formally in school and I find that the main arguments people have for eating meat are largely based on myth and really have no ground.

"We need meat to survive"

"We need meat to evolve"

"Vegetables have feelings too"

etc., etc.,

So, I've learned about something that, when done properly, leades to longer life spans, lower obesity rates, lower heart disease rates, and lower high blood pressure rates, and decreases digestive problems.

The idea of everyone eating meat that is free range and raised locally is nice enough in theory, but in practice it can't work. I forget the exact stats, but it's impossible to feed the world on local farms ( if you need me to dig up the source I will) - so we do need factory farming. The problem is that we're using it to produce meat. And even if we could go local it would require everyone in the developed world to eat considerably less meat than what is currently consumed and just looking around, that aint gonna happen any time soon.

So, ya, Im not trying to convince anyone either, but an argument was thrown out there for us to discuss and Im discussing it. No harm in that, I think.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Guest
clarity

[SaggyBalls]

The idea of everyone eating meat that is free range and raised locally is nice enough in theory, but in practice it can't work. I forget the exact stats, but it's impossible to feed the world on local farms ( if you need me to dig up the source I will) - so we do need factory farming. The problem is that we're using it to produce meat.

And even if we could go local it would require everyone in the developed world to eat considerably less meat than what is currently consumed and just looking around, that aint gonna happen any time soon.

I've also read stats (which I can't cite) that would refute the 'we need factory farms' line.

Factory farms serve to reduce the number of people working. Even looking at factory farmed chickens taking into account a cost benefit analysis, the only ones benefiting from the lowered cost of production are the shareholders in agribusiness.

When it comes down to quality of food/nutritional yield and cost of production, the ethically raised birds have fewer associated sanitation costs as far fewer animals are lost to disease when they're raised properly.

The meat LASTS longer and is generally handled better to a far greater degree so as to keep us safer.

We do not NEED factory farms.

It is POSSIBLE to feed the majority of the world on smaller farms but a few people will make considerably less money on the production of poor quality food and the process that supports feeding diseased carrion to people.

We NEED a more balanced diet (en masse) and we NEED to start doing things right.

The only way it's going to happen is to talk about it and not prop up the impossibilities of 'moving backwards' into the future, because under the guise of progress we've been poisoning ourselves and tainting our understanding about the food that we feed to our children.

No harm in discussion at all.

[Hal Johnson]

I've also read stats (which I can't cite) that would refute the 'we need factory farms' line.

Factory farms serve to reduce the number of people working. Even looking at factory farmed chickens taking into account a cost benefit analysis, the only ones benefiting from the lowered cost of production are the shareholders in agribusiness.

When it comes down to quality of food/nutritional yield and cost of production, the ethically raised birds have fewer associated sanitation costs as far fewer animals are lost to disease when they're raised properly.

The meat LASTS longer and is generally handled better to a far greater degree so as to keep us safer.

We do not NEED factory farms.

It is POSSIBLE to feed the majority of the world on smaller farms but a few people will make considerably less money on the production of poor quality food and the process that supports feeding diseased carrion to people.

We NEED a more balanced diet (en masse) and we NEED to start doing things right.

I did say:

And even if we could go local it would require everyone in the developed world to eat considerably less meat than what is currently consumed and just looking around, that aint gonna happen any time soon.

And I more than understand the issues with factory farms, I'm not for them at all. Just read something somewhere once that made a good point about it being really close to impossible to feed everyone off locally produced food. The fact that I cant reference it though prolly makes the point null and void, so I retract it. Still, its neat to talk about.

[SaggyBalls]

For sure. I'm still here.

If you want to read a great book that touches on these issues and addresses a perspective and issues that is/are so conveniently left out of the media check out the War in the Country

Great book and important for Canadians to grasp.

[Birdy]

Interesting article that touches on the dangerous practice of mass-producing bread:

Modern Bread, the Broken Staff of Life

http://www.drcranton.com/nutrition/bread.htm

So, I've learned about something that, when done properly, leades to longer life spans, lower obesity rates, lower heart disease rates, and lower high blood pressure rates, and decreases digestive problems.

I think the key words here are 'done properly'. The argument goes both ways for this thread, eating a paleolithic diet with 'cared for' meat can lead to all of the above as well.

The real lesson here is what both you and YT point out, it's time for society as a whole to start finding these topics interesting.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Guest