Why Veganism won't and can't save the world.

[bradm]

Has anybody else watched Man v. Food on OLN? I view it with a kind of awe-struck (or maybe huh?-struck) disbelief.

Aloha,

Brad

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

Why bother taking more than we need?

Perhaps because we're eating the wrong things and our bodies recognize it.

Don't buy it. We need ridiculously little to get by on. Anything else is just a wank about how much dominance we have over other animals. Sorry, but that's how it goes.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Guest

[Birdy]

But I'm not saying we need a lot to get by on. More like less of one, more of another. Not a 'wank' of dominance over animals, but a recognition of what our bodies do with the food we put in them.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Guest

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

The food I eat has nothing whatsoever to do with any damage I've ever done to my body . But with the rarest exceptions, I haven't touched meat in over 20 years, and there's no harm there that I've ever been able to detect. We just don't need to do it.

And the evolutionary thing? Again, I can't buy it. I think of all the violence over the past thousands and thousands of years that male humans have done to females to spread their genes (or, from their perspective, to get off), which modernity has helped them outgrow (ok, this is open to debate). Just because it's been that way before doesn't justify any continuing violence whatsoever.

[phishtaper]

I eat a lot of chick peas and lentils. It's great.

not so great for the other people in the car next day ...

[Birdy]

Dave, I don't think it's quite as easy as citing your own state of well-being as evidence that we can survive without meat. There's countless supporting research behind the ill-effects of grains and soy, the two things Vegans rely on most to supplement protein in their diet. While I'm happy to hear that you're making it out there, you're also a relatively young guy. As Grandma would say, don't count your chickens until they've hatched.

Furthermore, to actually sustain and grow enough fruits, vegetables, grains, and soy to feed a meatless world scares the shit out of me, when I think of the evils mass processing has introduced.

It's not an argument that we should eat meat because 'that's the way it's been', but more so that our bodies up to and including this point have not evolved to allow for anything different. Maybe in another 100,000 years I'd be singing a different tune.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

Alright this is the only half serious contribution I'll make to this thread but a quick glance at your sources doesn't exactly instill certitude

http://wattsupwiththat.com - really?

National Center for Policy Analysis - well that sounds impressive but wait, a 7 second internet search reveals them to be- wow- a right wing lobbyist group looking to serve their own ends.... :gasp: say it ain't so!

not going to delve any deeper but realistically, for every bit of "countless supporting research" you find I'm sure there is just as much countless undercutting research. Just find the ones you need to find to support your arguments

that's it for me

[Thorgnor]

where to start?

BradM - bunk to hunter-gatherers being hungry, disproven as colonial fiction meant to satisfy the conscience of the colonizers. People who forced changes in others lives made justifications like this. Colonizers needed to justify their claims that they were improving the lives of former hunter-gatherers when coercion towards a sedimentary farming lifestyle was accompanied by greater mortality rates in colonized populations. Actual scarcity for many groups came from being displaced and prevented from accessing traditional hunting grounds. In Canada the sparse but intense colonization (and accompanying resource extraction) of the Ottawa Valley Basin meant the removal of Algonquin people from the Park "for their own good" as "game" declined.

Birdy - don't call yourself names invented by fascists to get yourself out of trouble. Your not a set of letters until you allow someone else to begin predicting your future behavior for you based on a fiction of past tendencies. One set of dichotomies is just as bad as another at describing what actually goes down. Good and evil, intro and extro, expert or novice... power-brokering all. For instance, a suggestion that introverts and extroverts differ in their movement from act to reflection is a fiction of the moment. What i mean is that life is process, and these snapshot moments used by experts and professionals to describe the ALL of life often produce the fiction that life happens in "states" and not through movement, transition and potential. You are not an INFJ anymore than you want an answer for the "why" of life when the only question worth asking is "how" do we produce "living". Likewise to pre-determined "values", fascism of morality.

Isn't it convenient that the diet that a hunter-gatherer eats is called paleolithic? They must be somehow evolutionary set-backs then eh? If you eat that way you must be like, out of the past, man.

fucking social Darwinism racist bullshit.

Dr.EM - word. More like Nietzsche than Marx now eh? All Foucault'd up. Intention is back-formed gridding, reach for affect my friend.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Guest
db ftfw

[Birdy]

I was just trying to be cute, Thorgnor. I'm guilty as charged, but not 100% of the time.

Watts up With That? is a great blog.

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

While I'm happy to hear that you're making it out there, you're also a relatively young guy.

Thanks for making my night . Until modernity, most people didn't make it to my age.

[Schwa.]

The mass production of meat in minority countries is an environmental and ethical disaster. Also, we're pretty damn smart when we want to be, we could survive without meat.

Whatever, Fista

[ollie]

So was anyone here purporting that veganism can and will save the world in the first place? If not, I'd like to see a report telling us why Juggalos can't and won't save the world.

[Thorgnor]

Oh, but they can.

[Schwa.]

I watched this very episode last night. Just about fucking plotzed!

[phishtaper]

Until modernity, most people didn't make it to my age.

yes, the light in the palm of the hand would turn on ...

[Davey Boy 2.0]

WENCY LEUNG (The Globe & Mail) Superbuff Hugh Jackman, as X-Men superhero Wolverine, looks as though he hunts down his dinner with his bare claws. But in real life, the film star is more likely to be seen gnawing on a carrot than a carcass.

Mr. Jackman attributes his ultra-muscular physique to an almost entirely vegan diet - devised by a Canadian.

His previous method of bulking up for films "normally would mean a lot of animal protein and synthetic protein powders," Mr. Jackman writes in the foreword of a newly released edition of Thrive: The Vegan Nutrition Guide to Optimal Performance in Sports and Life , the fitness bible written by triathlete Brendan Brazier, 36. "While this worked in the past," continues the actor, "I knew this wasn't sustainable, that at some point my body (and probably my heart) would rebel. Not to mention that I often felt extremely lethargic eating so many hard-to-digest calories." On a plant-based diet, however, "Not only was it possible - it was easier and healthier." Say hello to the beefy vegan.

Defying the wispy, slightly anemic, hard-as-tofu stereotype, veganism's newest converts are adopting a meat- and dairy-free diet to help them become bigger, stronger and faster. Among them are a growing number of professional athletes, including Montreal Canadien tough guy Georges Laraque (now deputy leader of the Green Party), NFL tight end Tony Gonzalez and NBA veteran John Salley. Even boxing heavyweight Mike Tyson, who once bit an opponent's ear, has recently given up his taste for meat in favour of greens.

"In the past, it wasn't that vegans couldn't be athletic; it was just that many of them weren't athletic and became vegan for other reasons," such as animal rights and environmentalism, says the Vancouver-based Mr. Brazier, whose vegan fitness principles have garnered a cult following. ". . .Those people are still around, of course. But we're seeing a huge influx of people becoming vegan or near-vegan or at least having an interest in becoming vegan to improve their athletic performance and their health in general." Mr. Brazier, an Ultramarathon champion and Ironman competitor, says he first became vegan about 20 years ago around the age of 15 when he began experimenting with various diets to pursue an athletic career. At first, an all-plant diet made him constantly hungry and tired, he says.

But once he found the right combination of foods, "I was able to recover so much more quickly than other athletes I trained with, so I could start training more than them. I could improve faster." Mr. Brazier says he realized his initial mistake was a common one new vegans make - his diet consisted mostly of bread and pasta, and not a lot of fruits and vegetables.

"The joke was I became a starch-etarian, not a vegetarian," he says.

The combination that eventually worked involved obtaining most of his carbohydrates from fruit, which is easily digestible and high in nutrients, and plenty of grains, salads and protein smoothies made with hemp, pea and rice protein.

Besides avoiding the risks of cardiovascular disease and diabetes associated with meat and dairy, a vegan diet is alkalizing, he says, which minimizes muscle inflammation and lactic acid build-up. Vegan athletes are thus able to reduce their recovery time, allowing them to train harder.

"Just being vegan - even if it's a really good vegan diet - isn't going to magically make you a better athlete," he explains. "It will make you healthier, but the greatest thing it does is facilitates your own ability to work harder and therefore become a better athlete." At 6-foot-2-inches and 165 lbs., Mr. Brazier says he must maintain a lean figure to compete in his endurance sport. But he says veganism can help individuals with all types of fitness goals.

Robert Cheeke, a 5-foot-12, U.S. middleweight bodybuilder, says his vegan diet allows him to build muscle mass, as it makes him feel energetic. During competition, he weighs up to 195 lbs. His veganism is often met with surprise, he admits.

"People say, 'You don't look like a vegan. Vegan's aren't supposed to have muscles' or 'Vegans aren't supposed to out-lift me at the gym,'" Mr. Cheeke, 30, says. "I take that obviously as a compliment.

. .but it's somewhat of an insult to veganism, as if all vegans are supposed to be these, you know, skinny, scrawny, weak people." Mr. Cheeke, who adopted the diet for animal-rights reasons at age 15, says he's devoted his life to changing that public perception of veganism. He published a book this year, titled Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness: The Complete Guide to Building Your Body on a Plant-based Diet , and is working on a documentary Vegan Brothers in Iron , which he describes as a "vegan version of Pumping Iron ," the 1977 film following Arnold Schwarzenegger.

On Mr. Cheeke's website, veganbodybuilding.com, he posts photographs of other strong, muscular vegans.

"I always get on Twitter and I write, 'That's what a vegan looks like,'" he says. "Why have this image that's hurtful to the movement of people who are weak and scrawny?" Trionne Moore, lead nutritionist for the Canadian Sports Centre Ontario, says a high-quality, nutritious vegan diet can give athletes an edge, as some find meat and dairy congesting, leading to mucus formation, and poor digestion. She adds that avoiding hormones and chemicals found in animal products is also easier on the liver and less carcinogenic.

"You're basically running cleaner," she says.

Vegans, particularly high-performance athletes, can be at risk of certain nutrient deficiencies if they aren't careful, including low levels of iron, B-12 and zinc, she says.

She also warns that some people may not perform well on a vegan diet, depending on their body type, genetics and activity level.

"Definitely, definitely, it can be beneficial if it's used properly and for the right person," she says. But "is it for everyone? No, nothing is for everyone."

[Freak By Night]

Thanks for posting that article Davey Boy. Good read.

I've never seen anyone's height described as

"5-foot-12" before!

One thing's for sure: This thread is making me hungry.

[timouse]

what a great debate. i really feel like I need to weigh in on this.

as lots of you know, jennifer and i raise sheep and chickens, and are avid and ethical carnivores. this past year, we produced enough compost from animal poop to feed our gardens, which in turn produced food to feed us. the wool from shearing every spring provides fiber for clothing. (felted hats rock.) two of our lambs went off to (humane) slaughter and continue to provide us with many fabulous home raised meals. animals on our property (and in our diet) make our system work well.

friends of ours run a mixed farm down the road, and take in interns each season. one of this year's interns is full on vegan, and i had a very insightful conversation with her not long ago. one of the biggest challenges in growing food organically is fertility. many veggie growers that i have talked to are challenged to find a source of soil fertility. in the same way that growers who raise vegetables exclusively are continually looking for a source of compost, vegans (and vegetarians) seem to need to work harder than omnivores to get all the nutrition that their bodies require. many fats, vitamins and amino acids that are present in meat are a challenge to find in the plant kingdom.

contrast that with the mixed farm - a small herd of cows, some chickens and some pigs (all cared for very well) produce ample poop that is composted and used on the field to grow food for people and animals. they have refined their ratio of animal types to acres in production and have a successful self reliant farm. while they are not producing huge amounts of any one food, the overall productivity of the farm due to the wide variety of foods produced is orders of magnitude higher than the "100 acres of field corn for animal feed" farm.

one of my favourite agrarian authors, wendell berry, nails the thing.

"Industrial agriculture takes a perfect solution and divides it neatly in to two problems."

what he means by this is animal poop is a huge part of building and maintaining soil fertility.in smaller numbers on a mixed farm, the animal poop is a resource and is treated as such. in a massive hog barn or cattle feedlot, that poop becomes a waste management problem, and is often managed using an "industrial effluent" mindset. at the same time, the "100 acres of corn or soybeans" guy is applying nitrogen fertilizer to his crop as it is cheaper than trying to do the right thing with the volumes of animal manure produced by the meat factories.

factory production of any food is not the answer. the energy required to turn 100 acres of soybeans in to human food is staggering, as is the energy required to feed and clean up after 10 000 pigs.

veganism or vegetarianism as a reaction to the horrors of factory food production is a start. buying ethically produced meat and supporting small farmers who are caring for their land and their animals is another way that we can all as consumers make a difference.

"you never change things by fighting the existing reality. to change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."

-buckminster fuller

[Davey Boy 2.0]

pffft- you don't slaughter your own lambs?

what kind of suzy-farm are you running over there?

[Birdy]

Thanks for posting Timouse, and great work with your farm!

[timouse]

pffft- you don't slaughter your own lambs?

what kind of suzy-farm are you running over there?

we're quite happy to kill our own chickens, and have done a number of them. lambs are a bit more of a challenge, and short of backing the car over them, i don't really have the equipment to do it properly. it's all about humane. one day we will, but for now, it's a car ride to the abbatoir.

[Davey Boy 2.0]

I hope you at least named one of them "Of God"

Edited September 16, 2010 by Guest
mmmmm.... sacrilicious....

[timouse]

I hope you at least named one of them "Of God"

ok, i am definitely going to use that for next year's lambs.

:chug:

[Dr_Evil_Mouse]

short of backing the car over them, i don't really have the equipment to do it properly

Thanks for my laugh of the day, Tim .

[Big Wooly Mammoth]

one of my favourite agrarian authors, wendell berry, nails the thing.

i'm a big fan of wendell berry. he's writtens some good stuff on health and the community.

veganism or vegetarianism as a reaction to the horrors of factory food production is a start. buying ethically produced meat and supporting small farmers who are caring for their land and their animals is another way that we can all as consumers make a difference.

agreed, in general.

after watching Food Inc. i no longer eat meat unless I know where it came from. which means, that I am generally a vegetarian out of the house. I buy from a butcher in Ottawa that gets its meat from local farms. and don't eat crazy amouns of it, both from a health perspective, and from a cost perspective.

my wife recently read a book by Jonathan Safran Foer which has raised even more questions. particularly around the slaughtering of teh animals, even if they are raised in an ethical manner. and with respect to the treatment of hens and dairy cows. and even if the hens. chickens are treated well there is the questions of where the chicks came from.

so...some people are vegans just cause it's easier than always questioning where the stuff came from.

another issue is that we, in general, eat way too much meat. and that's partially cause it's so damn cheap....if you don't take into account the true costs.

and speaking of Jonathan Safran Foer:

the $200 burger

I would be raising chickens if I could.