The clueless playing with the clueless will only add up to massive cluelessness.

[kung]

Jazz musician Bob Moses is definitely stirring up some thought in various music circles, largely our own, throughout the US. It's a letter he wrote to the Boston Phoenix in response to a recent 'tribute' to Mingus. Well worth the read and directly related to our scene.

Bob Moses

[Booche]

That certanily was a good read........

"These brohims are for real and they're doing it right, but don't emulate their musical style or business success, they've earned those things. Emulate their generosity of Spirit, honesty, sacrifice and hard work. "

[gentlemonkey]

He certainly has some valid points. There is a definite taste of bitterness though.. I guess being a true master of his art hasn't translated into dolla billz.. mmw is the shit though.

[kung]

It does come off as arrogant but I tend to agree with this comment I read on the Slip's list:

"It is a letter that EVERYONE needs to read. If you can look past the

ego-driven "I played with.....so I know how to play...." there are some

seriously REAL elements to the letter. Mainly DO YOUR OWN THING! I also dug

the dig at the young musicians that name drop without any referentiality.

Just too real."

[bouche]

This almost reads like a generalization the inevitably can be taken as racist.

"Don't just play with other white college kids your own age. The clueless playing with the clueless will only add up to massive cluelessness."

A bittersweet letter indeed. It's true that people can take music for granted, but I don't think it is received that way when people are paying a tribute to a great musician, or simply ENJOY jamming out something that they love and other people love.

[doubleB]

Holly crap you guys are waxing some serious philosophical crap here, I don't mind admitting that most of this thread is somewhere beyond my grasp.

Perhaps my frame of reference is too limited, perhaps not being a musician, I just don't get it... but isn’t all about having fun and the adrenalin of being on stage? If only you knew how much we normal people envy and admire your talents and dedication. Is it really this complicated for you guys? Holly fucking semantics.... if you guys give up on music you should all go to law school.

[Booche]

He raises a great point of jamming with other 'styles' .......

I look at that as the essence of his article, not enough musicians (as he sees it) are willing to get outside of themselves and be "naked onstage"

then, these musicians turn around and claim that they are in the know, which Moses believes they most certainly are not......or they have their value system jumbled.....

"Nevertheless I feel compelled to offer this point of view because I feel a profound responsibility to pass on the ways of spirit, creation, integrity and respect to future generations"

He does come off a bit arrogant, but there is a great message in there.

"If Charlie Parker Were A Gunslinger, There'd Be a Whole Lot of Dead Copycats".

[Velvet]

Brad, I think my point is ultimately that it shouldn't come to semantics. You wanna play it, play it. My problem with the guy who wrote the letter is that he says don't steal this, and they didn't steal nothin', while at the same time saying, go learn the music, learn how to play other styles. I say he should shut up and make albums, and let the rest of the world do the same. If I wanna release a Mingus tribute album 'cuz I'm a fan and I like to play his music, then don't buy it, that's all. (Parker playing Cole Porter tunes was a pretty big album) The collective musical world doesn't need a lesson in ethics from anybody, especially a jazz musician.

And, though I'm a huge, and I mean huge fan, Charlie Parker was an asshole who did nothing to help out other musicians. When people wanted to sit in with him he would give the band the secret code to launch into playing changes that were impossible to follow, making the guest look like a fool. Plus he inspired many to take up heroin. And as far as copycats go, I'll say again that Parker's Ornithology is How High the Moon with a different melody, Donna Lee is Just Friends with a different melody, etc etc etc.

Anybody wanna attack me for saying Bird was a dick? C'mon over, we'll put on some records, play some changes and talk.

[Giggles]

I think we need to remember about personal views here.....which is what Bob Moses is expressing. Sometimes it seems as if he goes to extreams. I think if we look at, say Velvet's point about Coltrane's-My Funny Valentine...We have to consider this...Coltrane's - My Funny Valentine is all his own....a far cry from the original. So is Garcia/Saunder's version, Miles Davis' version, Lenny Breau's version and hell, even my own version I did for auditions to Humber College School for Jazz Guitar. I also think what Mr. Moses meant about wanting less "jazz" musicians is that he want's less of the "copycats". It's the same way I feel about the blue's (sorry if I step on toes here.....just my opinion) I find the whole blues genre bulked up with tones of the same ol' shit.....Guy's like SRV, Muddy Waters, B.B King & the other innovators are the ONLY blues musicians I will give the time of day to. I NEVER want to play the blues on my guitar.

Velvet -

quote:

---

Music is not a gift, unless working every day for your whole life to achieve what is ultimately unachievable and dying without getting there (I will dispel all arguments that any true musician ever felt like he was done learning music) is a gift. To look at a great musician and say that they are gifted, or worse, born to play, discounts all the work that person did to get where they are. Coltrane practised scales four hours a day, then he practised music. Gifted? Dedicated.

---

I FULLY agree.

Reba -

quote:

---

music is a gift.....a gift to the universe. and if someones compositions speak to you and you want to play them to learn from them that is their gift to you. anyone heard of bach or mozart or liszt etc etc etc. we learn from them and then continue to make our own way.......

---

Beautifully put.

In closing. I believe Mr. Moses want's more true musicians. People, who like Velvet suggested, put their live's into the music. Their heart and soul, pains and sorrows and triumphs. I once had the opportunity to listen and talk with Derek DeBeer, a mad, genius of a drummer who said "When you play, leave it all on the stage. There should be nothing left for you to say when your done playing......Let them know what your feeling." I try this philosophy whenever I play, and I hope that it's obvious for whomever may be hearing me play....otherwise, what do I do it for?

Giggles

[Booche]

to get chicks?

[Giggles]

To get chicks? Lame. I don't need a guitar to get chicks. That shit's for radio airplay fucks who couldn't write a song by themselves if their life depended on it.

I play music for self satisfaction and the satisfaction of others. To learn and be taught. To deal with everyday life. I have no greater respect in the world than my respect for music. I am so picky about whom I play with and what songs I play that I often refrain from playing with others (live) because I hate the sound of bad music. I blame my classical background. And I DON'T think I am better than these other players, in some cases maybe I do, but for the most part, I HATE THE SOUND OF BAD MUSIC! Hey, I know as well as anyone that "bum notes" happen. But to me, if there's a guy on stage wingin' it poorly (not knowing the song being played and the certain cord changes) I think it sounds terrible, even if the guy can noodle like Chef Boyardee

Giggles

[Pablo Sanchez]

Bum notes are the best part

[Velvet]

Giggles, let's jam! Next time you're in town for a show, c'mon over and we'll play jazz. I got all the gear here.

[doubleB]

Can I crash that?? Educational purposes?

[reba]

very interesting.....it's always a shame when someone has many good things to say, but in their self-righteous hurry to prove their own superiority the good points fade.

music is a gift.....a gift to the universe. and if someones compositions speak to you and you want to play them to learn from them that is their gift to you. anyone heard of bach or mozart or liszt etc etc etc. we learn from them and then continue to make our own way.......

[Velvet]

Boy, does this guy piss me off. What's the problem buddy, having a hard time finding a gig. The world needs less jazz musicians. Right!

"Play and write your own music based on your experience."

"Giants like Coltrane, Mingus, Miles, Ornette, Jaco etc. worked hard to develop their own unique pathway to the divine."

Ok Bob, whattya got to say about, oh I dunno, Jaco covering Charlie Parkers 'Donna Lee' for the first track on his debut album? Or Coltrane doing 'My Favorite Things'? Or what about the fact that the entire bebop movement (Parker, Monk, 'Trane, Miles, etc.) consisted of writing new melodies over old songs and retitling them and calling them their own?

There are no virgin births, everything comes from something. Does Bob have a problem that Mingus was inspired by Bach (and learned lots of his lines), a player he never met, heard live, or came close to, talent wise?

"A person's life is not a flavor to be tried and not a place one can come and go from. Your life is

your music. It can only be lived by the person

living it...Because you like something doesn't make it yours."

then...

"Join an R&B or Gospel group...Join a reggae band with Jamaicans..."

Something seem funny there to you? Oh, I could go on and on, but I'm as two-finger typist.

Although I do agree with this, single point:

"..keep Charles Mingus, Miles Davis, Ornette Coleman, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, John Coltrane or any other great spirits separate from your names and off your posters and advertisements."

though I bet Bob Moses doesn't hide the fact that he played with Mingus on his press releases.

[Velvet]

Sorry, but I gotta make one more point. Music is not a gift, unless working every day for your whole life to achieve what is ultimately unachievable and dying without getting there (I will dispel all arguments that any true musician ever felt like he was done learning music) is a gift. To look at a great musician and say that they are gifted, or worse, born to play, discounts all the work that person did to get where they are. Coltrane practised scales four hours a day, then he practised music. Gifted? Dedicated.

That being said, I think you were actually saying that music is a gift to the world. Okay. But the givers of the gift sacrifice their lives to provide the bounty.

I think music is magic. Real magic. No coincidence that as a child I always confused the words magician and musician. I still wonder why I confused alligator and escalator, but I still don't go near the things.

[gentlemonkey]

Does confusing Loblaws for Blahblahs count?

what about hamburger for hangaburger?

Good points velvet. musicians need to make their own path for sure, and dedication is what it's all about. ask pablo, or velvet for that matter. I think the idea of seeking out authentic players to learn more about a certain variety of music makes sense, but it doesn't validate you as a musician or your dedication to making music. Just a good way to learn. the key in music as in everything is keeping it real, and being yourself. pandering (to anything or anyone) should be punishable by toenail removal.

[Velvet]

Hey Giggles, here's some quotes you might like:

"I like to play with people who can play simple and are not threatened by other musicians thinking they can't play. And that eliminates 99% of the musicians."

-Neil Young

"Music is a yoga, something you really do when you are doing it. Thinking about what it means comes after the fact and isn't very interesting."

-Jerry Garcia

"When you hear somebody making music, they are bearing a naked part of their soul to you."

-Jimi Hendrix

[Dennis]

This is a great thread! It's nice to see poeple actually "thinking." One has to remember that Moses claims to be pissed off at what he sees happening to "his" scene. So, his self-righteousness is evident, but also qualified. I don't think he argues that covering a song is wrong. His arguement is that players should not try to emulate the sound/spirit of an individual. If you take that away from an individual, then there is no individual left. Although, I do think that this concept gets lost in his obvious outrage, and therefore is lost in his discourse. The fact that Jaco covered Donna Lee is irreleveant. Have you listened to Jaco's Donna Lee? Does it sound anything like the Bird's? No. The original melody is there, the changes are there (with a few substitutions), but the essence of the tune is very different. It is this essence of which Moses writes. The personality that is brought to a tune by the players involved. Personally, I would rather see a bad original band than a good cover band (unless the cover band does something interesting to make it their own, like putting all their tunes in 7/8 time or something). While this is not a perfect example, it is a simpler example of Moses argument (in my understanding of the article).

I don't know if I have added anything to this discussion, but at least I was on topic!

Dennis

[Giggles]

Sure thing Velvet....perhaps before the TMNS show tomorrow. I'll see if I can arrange it if'n it's good for you. Great quote's, I hadn't heard that Neal one before......SO true....

Giggles

[bradm]

I don't know if y'all saw the ad in the XPress, but Cafe Dekcuf is having open stage nights on Thursdays (IIRC). (I think the slogan at the bottom of the ad was something like, "You play, we record." so I guess they're taping whatever happends on stage.)

Anybody up for it? I can bring a guitar, and maybe we can use the Sanctuary to discuss a semi-formal list of tunes to try (just as a basic for jamming).

Aloha,

Brad

[bouche]

Why's it gotta be on fuggin thursday's?

Why am I in Smiths Falls?

What the hell is Keifer Sutherland doing on Prime Time TV?

Why do I know people actually watch and enjoy Survivor?

These questions and more, tonight at 11.