Cafe Dekcuf is Fucked

[Harpua]

So....I heard that the Cafe made up a few new rules since last time just to make sure that we don't have any fun. Amung the new rules, is "no taping". Thats sweet! Obviously these people have no idea what they're doing. More sound equipment then brains one might say. Band friendly? Ha, trying to milk money off the band by making them pay $300 for a recording of their own show. Anyways, this will give me a chance to try out my new stealth mics.

So, what is everybodies opinions on this type of behaviour. Is this even something they can do? I mean, can a band not tape their own show if they want to, etc. Is this a "fair" thing to do? Is this a nice thing to do?

[Tissue Man]

I think its poop.... thats all i have to say

[bradm]

Sure they can ban bands from taping their own shows: it's their venue. There's nothing that says they have to let the band use the sbd feed (it's their equipment, and they say how it gets used), and they can ban audience taping if they want to (because they say what can/can't go on in their room).

What needs to happen is to make Cafe Dekcuf realize that it's in their best interest to allow taping. This means making sure that tape-friendly bands bring in good audiences, and that taping doesn't make them miss out on money they'd get if taping weren't allowed. I realize they've spent a lot setting up their (great) sound system, and need to make their investment back (and they have a right to make money on it), so let's offer to work *with* them (rather than threaten them or break their rules).

Maybe a compromise would be to not have audience taping if the band agrees to pay to have Dekcuf record. If a band wasn't going to pay Dekcuf to record, Dekcuf isn't losing any money by having audience taping; if a band is paying for recording, the audience should respect that and not compete. (This is just an idea, and not necessarily my opinion.)

I like the place, its location, its feel, and the bands that are being brought there; I just hope we don't have to go somewhere else (where?).

Aloha,

Brad

[Hux]

no taping....hehe...we'll see about that. This is a matter or principle.

[rubberdinghy]

Maybe they are losing money...The bartender gave me too much change on two seperate occasions!!! (I didn`t have the heart to keep it, so I gave it back!) Plus when I order an Ex, I got a Heiniken!

EEXXPORRT...HEINIKEN...I don`t see any similarities!!

[treyter]

It is interesting to see that these folks are shooting themselves in the foot u know?

I understand the concept of trying to control what goes on in your establishment, especially after they have obviously spent a good amount of $$$ on their sound system, but they are really missing the point.

I think these guys just do not realize the possible reprecussions of ALLOWING people to tape, including the building of a community around this bar and the bands that play in it.

We should try to make them understand the dynamics of the way our scene works, and the way the bar scene works. Taping is essentially good for the bands, which in turn is good for the bar....because we all know in here, if our bands aren't happy, we're not. We drink much more when we're happy. They are there to make the money on the booze....not the music. That is something they've obviously overlooked. The only souls that need to make money off the music are the guys/girls channelling it. Now, if they wanted us to stop the snoots, then they might have a valid argument.

Now if they would like to have some sort of special for the tapers to plug into the board (say $15 or something), to offset their costs on the idiotic purchase of expensive sound equipment, then maybe that'd work. Forcing a large $$$ amount onto young, up-and-coming bands to allow taping is unnaceptable, and should not be tolerated.

Somebody needs to sit down and talk with the owner, and discuss the pro's and con's of taping in a bar environment.

Hood

[Hux]

Is there confirmation on this? official word..?

[Dennis]

What does the band get in return for the $300? If it is only a digital two track stereo copy of what is in the house mix, then it ain't worth $0.02! You can easily find studios that will give you an 8 hour session for under $500.

If they give you a multi-track digital output, then you can at least work on the mixing and mastering. This would still pose the problem of trying to overdub (ie: different mics used at the club, different mic placement, different board). All of this would make a very inbalanced sounding recording.

The other problem is Dekcuf is too small a venue to get a true vision of the sound that is being created. The mix is designed for the room, not recording. If you ask me, they wasted their money investing in such equipment. These toys are useless without the proper environment. All consoles have a stereo out that you can plug into a DAT machine and get your digital copy of the show (again, unless they have the ability to create two different mixes).

I believe it is the band's resposibility to negotiate what happens at their shows. If they don't like it, they can boycott it. I think boycotting a Nero gig because of club policy is more hurtful to the band than anything else. If the band cares (and I'm not suggesting that any particular band doesn't) then they will do what is right for their scene.

[SaggyBalls]

that sucks ass.

they should charge for a patch but allow taping...maybe institute a policy where if you tape you'd better drink your face off or pay for your buddy's drinks for awhile sorta thing...which is still wrong.

they can't compare their setup to a studio because they're totally different in all respects other than music is made there and some similar equipment.

i hope they smarten up.

[Hux]

gigs are the one chance where the band actually gets to recoup a little $$ for the many hours of effort and slugging it out...having to pay $300 is a drag.

(For the record we don't give a rats ass about the $$, but it's nice not to lose $$ on a night)

[peipunk]

Nicely put, Dennis....this is a touchy issue but I think you are right in saying it really is the bands responsibilty to negotiate things with the bar. I am not trying to defend Dekcuf, we certainly don't make enough $ to afford a $300 recording when we have friends who will do it for free (friends who have devoted good $ into good equipment for just that purpose). But if they are trying to run a dual business, bar/recording facility, there must be an understanding between both business parties (or some good stealth; eh, Harpua?). Anyway, I would certainly rather have tapers allowed free rein, bootlegs that circulate are one of the best forms of promotion for bands of our nature, imo. Cheers...

[Harpua]

The other funny part is just the week before they said I could have digital SBD patches anytime I wanted as long as it was ok with the band. They must have noticed us having fun on Tuesday night taping and decided they wanted to put an end to it, thats what I call, flip-flopping on the issues.

Anyways, I've been breaking "venue rules" since 1989 and I don't plan on stopping now. It just won't be as convenient to tape.

One thing I noticed about the Dekcuf on Tuesday and Thursday nights is that the Nugget crew was 99% of the people in the bar. That means that Nugget Productions brought in the entire audience. Does that means that the places would have been empty if not for our crazy little group or what?

There is no need for bands/people to boycott this bar. Its still a nice room. Its just starting to look like the people running it are assholes IMO. So, instead of boycotting, lets just fuck with them. For example, full snout policy is going into effect for me from now on in this room. Anytime there is a no-taping or other foolish rules, they wont get the $50 I spend on booze, like I did last night. Instead I'll just bring snouts and order mix. Heheheh.

[treyter]

Yeah, the snoot scene is definitely a way to have a little revenge and save some cash if you're into that. I always feel a bit bad about it, but hey, if they are being pricks about taping and camera's etc. and a full-on boycott doesn't seem to benefit anyone (it's a cool room), then why not?

I still think that someone (and i might be looking in DoubleB's direction-sorry dude) should have a chat with these clowns and explain to them the idea of word-of-mouth advertising which has built many bars into historic sites

ie.: nectar's, the fillmore, wetlands, etc. etc.

as well as the fact that they are not going to make money off taping these types of bands...these bands have their own recording facilities already.

STICK TO THE BOOZE GUYS. THAT'S WHERE THE MONEY IS. YOU GET THE BAND IN ORDER TO FILL THE PLACE, IN ORDER TO SELL A DRUG.

that's the gist IMO.

[Harpua]

I just thought of something hilarious that we could try if all this isn't able to be worked out, which it probably can be just by discussion, but this would be funnier especially if they noticed what we were up to.

Next time theres a band we really want to record at the Dekcuf, we just figure out how many of us "snoutermen" it would take to get $300, then we pay that to the bar for the recording and we all have our own snouts and order nothing from the bar, and yet they notice that we are still very very drunk.

So many funny things we can try to do, but I think double B mentioned something about something about they might not like our crowd. Might be partially do to the large amount of nugs we puff downstairs in the hallway.

[treyter]

they don't like a crowd that drinks its own weight in alcohol???...talk about business sense.

these guys are so stupid that when Barrett fell on his face last night, they asked me the number for 911.

[doubleB]

OK...a few things

First off... I love this room... love the sound......love the look ... love the history.

Unfortunately it is naive to believe that these people give a rats ass about our scene. To them we are insignificant. While the idea of sitting down with the ownership and educating them on our culture is nice in principal, the reality of the situation is that they believe they know everything and have nothing to learn from us.

I believe that it is very short sited of the Cafe management to not allow open taping. The fact of the matter is that we will tape whatever the fuck we want... with or without the venues consent. What gets compromised is the quality of the recording. Cafe Dekcuf bootlegs are going to be out there regardless...I would think they would want those recording to sound as good as possible so as to promote what a great sounding room this is.

While I am not looking to burn the bridge to the Cafe Dekcuf, I am not looking to put much more effort into building a bridge either. There are other venues in this city that welcome us with open arms and are infinitely easier to work with. I have enjoyed every night at the Cafe and the staff have always been amazingly nice. I hope to find a way to keep doing business with the Cafe but after my show next Thursday, there are no more Cafe bookings for Nugget Productions. Efforts on my part to secure more dates have been treated with complete disinterest.

I hope someday to re-establish a regular night at the Cafe. The venue is too perfect for us to ignore. In time they will come back to us... there isn't a crew in the city who will come out as consistently and drink as much as all of you.

[Booche]

Ok ok ok, let me see if I am following all of this.

Barrett fell on his face?

[DanMTL]

Dig this.

IMO

soundboard recordings don't bring out the best in live performances. Stereo microphones and a mini disc or Dat recorder do. As long as the band being taped allows tapers, and the tapers are not using the soundboard, then there is nothing that anyone can legally do to stop you.

have fun.

Dan.

[Giggles]

I think it's crap! I don't think a band should have to pay shit to have their own music recorded...certainly not $300 or some crazy shit like that! We got on this with the "What makes a jamband?" thread but I think with the freedom-like music we like to here, each performance is unique and it's special that as a community, involving the fans and the artists, we like to document each performance. Perhaps a deal can be made with the tapers that wish to tape. Not necessarily soundboard..if you know the sound dude, more power to you, but a compramise on price for space to set up stuff. Say...christ, the cost of these shows is only $6 max so maybe an extra 33.3% and make them pay $8 to get in.......

Just me $0.02

Giggles

[bouche]

Wait a minute! How can they say "no taping"?

What are they really banning? Can you not even bring a little device in there, or you just can't use it? I smell a very fine line here.

What about pictures? Are they banning photography too?

If this is what they are doing, we have the power to boycott. Everyone here has pretty much packed that joint a few times and we can UNPACK it too.

[Asparagus]

How did the royal 'WE' find out this info?

And when? Wasn't the GTB Tuesday show taped? Or was that the last?

[bradm]

Playing Devil's Advocate, remember that Dekcuf didn't have to put in the sound system they put in; they could have gone with a basic PA with no recording capability, but chose to spend the extra bucks to have a great-sounding system with (digital, IIRC) recording. They should be able to recoup that investment.

Personally, I think $300 is a bit much (what does a band like Downtime or GTB or Nero earn for a performance?), but if the quality is as good as what you can get in a recording studio, it's in the competitive range (what does a 2- or 3-hour session in a recording studio cost, including mastering to stereo?).

I don't think that banning taping is going to make them any more money, so we need to find ways that make Dekcuf money while allowing us the ability to tape. I'd be happy paying a couple of bucks extra at the door (say $8 instead of $6 or $5) to gain access to tapes.

Aloha,

Brad

[Giggles]

If these guys want to be pricks IMO, fuck em'.!

NO OTHER SCENE brings in the biz like us. We are sheer drinking and partying animals...and we do it 3, 4, 5 times a week. We can boycott these fucks and teach them a lesson. Like DoubleB says, there are plenty of bars in the city that love us and KNOW we party hard and often and if their snubbing DoubleB in ANY way, definitly fuck em'!

My $0.02 again

Giggles

[Im going home Donny]

Babylon?Babylon?Babylon?I know its big which can B a hurdle but these Fucked guys sound like a herd of brats...Snoots away!Adams pretty cool..Babylons pretty cool..the staff is pretty cool..the sound is pretty cool.....mabey Adam should divide the room somehow..a curtain or something for smaller crowds so we're all herded in together..'cause i think he must still make some coin off our drinking habits?Does he make $$ on the smaller shows?How many people does it take 4 Adam 2 make coin off a show? I would like 2 see more shows at Fucked but who needs the attitude?!!anyways had 2 say something....