Go Sens Go - Fan Forum

[Hal Johnson]

I dont get it.

[Hal Johnson]

Oh wait, just got it.

[AD]

Schubert nailed (cleanly, by the sounds of it) Downie during the SAME shift. Badda-bing, badda-boom.

What colour font would I use for "So what?" or "What's your point?"

[Booche]

The color of intent.

[AD]

Well, the intent to injure is obvious, yeah.

[Kanada Kev]

Bob McKenzie is Bob McKenzie's biggest fan. He loves to hear himself talk.

That posting of his makes many valid points. However, it's all over the map. He lays out some details that show how the actual hit is inconclusive and to instead determine how evil this was by what happened before and after the hit. Then at the end he says there's no question as to what happened? What is it Bob?

Of course he does have to interject that he's known Downie since peewee hockey and admires him (he always kisses ass).

I think that the biggest concern here (other than the obvious ... McAmmond's health and speedy recovery) is that if they want to eliminate the possibility of these sorts of event occurring then they have to alter the rule book. Right now, the definitions are vague enough to permit these sorts of things.

Question: what happens if there is retaliation in an ensuing game like McGratton publicly stated? McGratton's public comments could be used as evidence that there is "intent to injure" and therefore, no matter how debatable a hit is in that game (one that doesn't technically fall outside of the rules), subject to the same suspension terms that will come out of this one. What do you think? I'm curious. I think that this is why you won't see Campbell dump a 25 game suspension like he did last year. I think he'll end up getting a few games and then they'll look at tweaking the rules for some more control.

btw - i could care less what 2 teams are involved in this.

ps - dave-O i ain't telling you what grade i'm in, but lunch is almost over and i'm already working for afternoon recess :)

[ollie]

btw - i could care less what 2 teams are involved in this.

Oh, that's rich.

[Kanada Kev]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=219236&hubname=nhl

The Senators got some good news on Dean McAmmond Wednesday.

The forward does not have any factures after being hit by Philadelphia's Steve Downie in an exhibition game on Tuesday night.

The NHL is reviewing the incident but are not expected to take any action until they have a full report.

[AD]

Wow, rough night at the Bank

McAmmond was not the only player injured on Tuesday. Flyers forwards Joffery Lupul and Scottie Upshall both suffered broken wrists in the game.

[dave-O]

There goes the Flyers second line. Does that mean Downie just made the team?

[Booche]

FACK!

There goes one of my fantasy players. Thanks Upshall. I am getting annihilated in one of my NFL keeper leagues because of injuries, the last thing I need to happen is see another 40-50$ fly out the window. Stupid fucking pre-season bullshit. I'ld be even more pissed if I were a Flyers fan.

[Kanada Kev]

if I were a Flyers fan.

eeeeewwwwwwwww

[Booche]

Oh my lord. That's even worse than I could have imagined. Kev, how can you possibly defend that hit? There is no question an elbow was thrown and he is totally launching himself into McCammond!

That's an awful hit.

Edit to add:

Tom just got home (a Leaf fan) and had this to say

That's one of the worst hits I have ever seen and looked like something out of a video game.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Guest
video madness

[Booche]

Bob McKenzie is leading on Off The Record.

[Kanada Kev]

Oh my lord. That's even worse than I could have imagined. Kev, how can you possibly defend that hit?

Whatever. I am NOT defending the hit already. I was just trying to say that from what I've seen, (and how Bob McKenzie described the analysis of their replay guys) in relation to the rules as they stand, that this is going to be difficult for Campbell to discipline HEAVILY. He has to make the decision based on the interpretation of the rules. Sure, like in many games, the retaliatory instinct comes out. I'm sure that Downie was looking to hit something after getting decked himself (that happens all the time!). However, he chose to do it in an overly-aggressive manner, but nothing as blatant McSorley, Bertuzzi, Domi's sucker punch, etc. Like it was said before, i think that this equates much more closely to the Neil hit on Drury. Bad judgment call by the hitter COMBINED with a player not seeing the hit coming, which makes it that much worse. That being said, i don't see how he could receive a 25 game suspension like was handed out last year.

The refs gave a match penalty to Downie. As MacKenzie said, that decision is made by the refs when they deem there being and intent to injure on the play. Fair enough. What I find intriguing is how the circumstances AROUND a specific hit will, or will not, play in to further discipline. I posed this question (which I don't know the answer to, or if there is any protocol): IF disciplinary action is taken, will it be the result of the hit ITSELF, or will there be an assumption made that based on the fact that Downie received at hit just prior to the event that THAT is what makes this an intent to injure situation? If that is how they make these decisions, then what I wonder is in what other circumstances would actions before a hit be the grounds for claiming "intent to injure"? And how far back can you go? Retaliation, with the intent to injure, could go back as far as the last time two teams met up. So, in this instance, with McGratton making blatant statements calling for Downie to be punished on the ice, then one must consider that the precursor for an intent to injure on any ensuing hits by McGratton on Downie.

This is one of those sticky situations that happens in times like this. Will it set precedent? Will it stop it from happening again? Would the same discipline be doled out if the player who received the hit was able to get up on their own? What if there was intent to injure, but the player missed the check completely? It doesn't stop the behaviour.

So, what will become of this? I'm curious. I'm not defending anyone and i'm not condoning cheap play. The players do not have the respect that they used to have for one another. "Dirty" players abound, retaliation is feared due to the instigator rule and automatic suspensions, and Campbell seems to rarely hand out heavy duty convictions, or ones that are a joke (who was it in the playoffs last year who got game suspensions, but didn't have to serve them until this year's regular season? WTF?)

Curious.

[AD]

If McGrattan hits Downie in ensuing games, the refs better not call intent to injure - they're there to call what happens on the ice and that is it, period. If someone in the NHL deems further discipline in that hypothetical, well, that would be interesting as there's trash talk everywhere. But no way should a referee make an intent to injure call on the ice based on comments made weeks / months previous.

[Kanada Kev]

Right AD. That's what I'm talking about. I completely agree with what you're saying. So, should the rules state that any actions that happen prior to a hit that is deemed intent to injure fall within a SPECIFIC time frame? In this instance it was on the SAME shift (Downie retaliating with intent to injure after getting hit himself). Fair enough.

Now, what if the collision had happened early in the next period, and say was directly at the individual who had nailed him in the previous period? In that case would the ref just call a major penalty and then leave it up to the league to review for further action?

It seems to me what happens more often than not is that a ref will give warning to the benches that he won't tolerate anything that could injure a player who's a "marked man." Does that make it worse? Does that make the players play a different game? When is it a game played by the "letter of the law" in the rule books, and when is it manipulated by the referee (like good ol Kerry Frasier used to do ).

Consistency is what most players, coaches and fans seem to want. With the overhauls to many of the rules, and some piss-poor officiating, league discipline, etc. many are confused (me being one of 'em )

[Kanada Kev]

A couple of interesting comments that I read that pose a couple of observations/solutions. There are tons of them after the McKenzie editorial. Lots of talk about the equipment, respect, disciplinary action, refs, coaches, goons, Schubert's hit on Downie, etc. etc. etc.:

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/?id=219220

Look, as for the suspension, that is simple. If you are issued a major, and a match, you're out for 82 games, or 20 games AFTER the injured player returns, whichever is less. That will send the statement that intending to injure is being taken seriously. Does this leave intend open to interpretation...absolutely, but this is not a court of law, this is entertainment, and as entertainment the league is forced to accept the verdicts of the courts of public opinion, fair or not. As such, unless the league wants to become further known as a fringe sport, they must unwaiveringly face the reality that it is time to step up and draw the line once and for all. And just to be clear, as a Sens fan, I would include Neils hit on Drury in the same category of predatory but argueably legal.

It seems like the rules of the game are still catching up to the athleticism of today's players, and this discrepancy will continue to result in injuries at all levels. Imagine a youngster watching tape of both Bobby Orr and Dion Phaneuf - after whom will he model himself? When his minor hockey coach tells him to take out an opposing forward, will he gently squeeze the player into the boards to remove him from play? Probably not. As the guiding light, the NHL must focus on the evolution not simply of its jerseys, but of the rule framework on the ice. And this should be based on today's athelete, not a 160 lbs Guy Lafleur streaking down the wing without a helmet.

After reading all of those responses to McKenzie's op-ed i'm exhausted from hockey and the season hasn't even started! Ugh! And yes, the Leafs are losing 6-2 (like that's a surprise!)

[dave-O]

I couldn't disagree with you guys more. If McGrattan pulls a Bertuzzi, then he should get punished like Bertuzzi. Premeditation has no place in the game. Now I'm plagiarizing Bob McKenzie too, but this is one one of the reasons that fighting in the NHL has become so contrived and lame. It's rarely the result of intensity and emotion in the game anymore. I might as well be watching Dancing With The Stars.

[hamilton]

Looks like Downie's got a bit of a history...

History of violence

Newmarket native Steve Downie of the Philadelphia Flyers is no stranger to notoriety of a dubious nature:

Sept. 2005: Cross-checked Windsor teammate Akim Aliu in the face during practice. Suspended five games and ordered to attend counselling sessions. Refuses to rejoin team after suspension and is traded.

Jan. 2006: While with Peterborough, jumps Belleville captain Andrew Gibbons in closing seconds of game. Suspended five games.

Feb. 2006: Two-game suspension for instigator against Mississauga's Nathane Martin.

Oct. 2006: Two-game suspension for verbal abuse against referee from the bench.

Feb. 2007: After being traded to Kitchener the month before, Downie is ejected for sucker-punching Guelph's Mike McLean after a faceoff during game, then punts helmet and throws a tray of water bottles and sticks. Suspended eight games.

April 2007: Instigates fight at end of playoff game vs. Plymouth. Team fined $500 to avoid two-game suspension for Downie.

Sept. 2007: Charged and elbowed Ottawa's Dean McAmmond in the face during pre-season game, leaving McAmmond with a concussion.

Link

[AD]

I couldn't disagree with you guys more. If McGrattan pulls a Bertuzzi, then he should get punished like Bertuzzi. Premeditation has no place in the game. Now I'm plagiarizing Bob McKenzie too, but this is one one of the reasons that fighting in the NHL has become so contrived and lame. It's rarely the result of intensity and emotion in the game anymore. I might as well be watching Dancing With The Stars.

you misunderstood me - i agree with you, but i don't think the referee on the ice can call a penalty based on pre-mediatation. that's what colin campbell is for. it's not the referee's job to follow what the players say off the ice and determine whether that translated to an event on the ice; it's the NHL's job in that scenario.

[dave-O]

Gotcha. I did misunderstand you, I see what your saying now. But I can't see that happening on the ice.

[Kanada Kev]

you misunderstood me - i agree with you, but i don't think the referee on the ice can call a penalty based on pre-mediatation. that's what colin campbell is for. it's not the referee's job to follow what the players say off the ice and determine whether that translated to an event on the ice; it's the NHL's job in that scenario.

Right. But there's still a slippery slope there. The referee can call Intent to injure. If intent is involved, then that IS pre-meditiation. If a player goes after another because they are seeking revenge for receiving a dirty hit (boarding by Schubert in this case) then they are going after another player with intent (def. - the state of a person's mind that directs his or her actions toward a specific object) to do harm. That is, KNOWING what they are going to do with a plan is pre-meditation.

All 4 officials on the ice should be looking for, and calling these sorts of plays. I place a lot of blame on them. They should be able to quell situations like this ahead of time. One of the 4 refs that night should have stopped the play after Downie was hit from behind into the boards. Knowing the NHL though, and we've all seen it, they don't make calls like that when it's a 'goonish' type player like Downie (or Domi, Neil, McGratton, Brashear, Simon, etc.) who gets it from a 'dirty' hit.

Any more news on McAmmond?

[AD]

Great quotes in this. I've bolded my favourite parts. (horrible editing by TSN by the way. so many spelling and grammar mistakes)

Two days after being knocked out by a hit to the head from Flyers' Steve Downie, Senators forward Dean McAmmond spoke to TSN at Scotiabank Place.

"I don't think I have concussion problems. I have a history of guys giving me traumatic blows to the head, that's what I have a problem with. I was lifeless there, I was pretty grateful that I'm pretty much normal know," McAmmond said.

The NHL is reviewing the incident but are not expected to take any action until they have a full report.

McAmmond was coming around the net in the second period of Tuesday night's exhibition game and had just released the puck when he was clobbered by the 20-year-old Downie. McAmmond was taken off on a stretcher.

The Senators forward was carried off on a stretcher, but the Senators announced yesterday that there were no fractures. Downie received a match penalty - which means an automatic and indefinite suspension pending a review.

Downie said Tuesday's hit wasn't premeditated and he did not intend to go for McAmmond's head.

"I didn't mean to hurt him and I hope he's OK," Downie said following the game. "My game's to hit and to finish the check. I'm just trying to earn a spot on the roster. It's part of my game and I apologize for him getting hurt. I thought I got him clean. Once we hit the boards after, I asked if he was okay." -(AD edit: What the fuck?)

McAmmond also had a concussion after a hit by Anaheim defenceman Chris Pronger in Game 3 of the Stanley Cup final last June.

Senators head coach John Paddock believes the league needs to come down hard on Downie, who has yet to play a regular season game in the NHL.

"I think for the good of Steve Downey. He needs to be suspended for a long time. We were cheering for him the last two christmas times (World Junior Championships) and he was a big factor. We we're cheering his clean hits and we wouldn't be cheering for something like that.

"I think this kid is the kind of player every team in the league wants, but you have to have control. To me for him to be in the NHL when he is 24-years-old, I think the league takes probably the most important thing in his life away from him for a while, Paddock said.

"I think he is a young guy who unfortunatley we all know his history in the OHL and stuff probably hockey is the most important, take it away from him, so hopefully he remembers, I think it would be the best thing for him so he can be playing in the league when he is 24 years old."

Senators tough guy Brian McGratton who attempted to get Downie after the hit, issued a warning following the game Tuesday night.

"He'll get what's coming to him next time we play him, that's for sure." McGratton said.

When pressed Thursday morning about his comments, McGratton did not shy away.

"I don't beat around the bush. I'm not the guy who whips out cliche after cliche you are going to get a straight answer out of me. At least I'm telling him I'm going to do it I'm not going to blindside him or hit him from behind."

"That kid may get away with that stuff in junior but he won't get away with it in this league, not for long, I just hope he gets dealt with the right way."

[ollie]

There was a great piece on Sportsdesk last night where they interviewed players from other teams about the incident and the universal message was that Downie is going to get his, and if not from Ottawa then from a friend of McAmmond's. Y'all probably heard Jason Blake's comments that Downie shouldn't even be allowed in the league.

I think that's a little harsh but it was heartening to see the other players' reactions.