Paul Simon: An Even Bigger Twunt Than I Thought?

[hamilton]

Okay, so I guess we all know about how Paul Simon ripped off all of those African musicians that were on the Graceland album, and was later forced to go back and retroactively give them songwriting credits and roylaties. It turns out that he also ripped off Los Lobos in the same way on the same album, Graceland. At least, that's the story according to Los Lobos' Steve Berlin, in this story from jambase. It doesn't seem like he would be making this up.

I always thought that Paul Simon was an over-rated twunt who had lucked out with a few good songs - now it makes me wonder if maybe even more of those few good songs weren't also ripped off from other artists.

[Dr. J]

Although this situation (at least from the point of view of Steve Berlin) appears to be quite blatant, as we know from the Robbie Robertson - Band conflict, songwriting credits can be quite a contentious issue.

Here's another one that's currently before the courts. There's no question that the organ is a huge part of the song A Whiter Shade of Pale and if Fisher manages to gain co-writng status that could have huge implications.

Historically the individual(s) who provided the lyrics and the melody were considered the songwriter(s). The Procul Harum case could change that and would raise all kinds of questions. For example, could a song for which George Harrison contributed the lead guitar part still technically be considered a Lennon & McCartney composition?

[geomouse]

This reminds me of the Doors dillemma. Seems that Robby Kreiger wanted soul rights at one time to Light My Fire (A.D. Jim), since he came up with the melody and lyrics. Wouldn't be much of a song without the elecric piano. Here's the part that gets me and I'm probably pissing off some fans here. I don't know all the exact facts of this. I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm off.

Every tune that Jim wrote lyrics for was recorded as written by "The Doors". That just made sense to me because I don't think Jim could play a note.

It would be like having all the Doors tunes posting credit to Jim as the songwriter. Tough situation. Certainly there are artists that are the inspiration for many songs. It must be hard to associate credit after the fact.

I am encouraged though to here that a judge would rule that credit be given where it's due.

[Jay Funk Dawg]

Paul Simon is still an amaizing songwriter... and i think that borrowing ideas is all apart of music, I haven't read the story about Paul yet, regardless the topic of royalty rights can be very sticky.

I've been in Bands that have argued over writing credits, but there is something called neighbouring rights which I hope that Chameleon can comment on, these rights are supposed to reward the musicians who come up with the licks, solos and melodies that help define the essence of the song.

interesting!

[ggrtrhhrtgg]

share the wealth.

[zero]

I think that what is telling about Steve's 'argument' is that he says that the Los Lobos guys brought in a song they already were thinking of releasing themselves. He said it was clear to them that Paul was playing their song, that it would've been the same as him playing 'Will The Wolf Survive' (the most recognizable Los Lobos song, their biggest hit, outside of La Bamba). An artist knows when someone is effectively covering their material, their naivete seems to have been that they presumed they would be given some credit which it turns out they weren't.

[Jaimoe]

I heard some of the African stuff before Simon got his hands on it. He liberally lifted a lot of the music and used it on Graceland, never giving credit to the real composers - musicians that probably still need the royalty cheques.

[balogna pogna]

It would be nice to hear Paul Simon's version of the story. It seems to me that Los Lobos' management really let them down in this situation. If Paul Simon was intending on paying them for ideas and not giving any songwriting credit this should have been made clear to everyone.

[Tricky]

If the case is that Simon essentially 'stole' peoples music without giving them anything is too bad. But despite Simon's situation with this whole event, whether he did this or not, does not take away the quality of music he did produce. If you look at this objectively, you'll see an artist being influenced by other musicians, possibly too much in some cases and not thanking those who helped him out, or taught him something new about music...essentially I don't give a sh*t where he gets his music from, I don't care of he rips people off or not...I'd like to have the time to care what Paul Simon does, if I did I'd probably work for some tabloid magazine spreading gossip mixed with facts based mostly on my opinion of his music...fair???But if I were Paul Simon, I would thank the people who helped me, I would give them royalty cheques, I would help them...But I'm not Paul Simon, and he's not me... too bad he's not me, I bet he'd like my new shoes

[Dr. J]

essentially I don't give a sh*t where he gets his music from, I don't care of he rips people off or not...

If Paul Simon is taking music or musical ideas from other artists, he should come clean, acknowledge it and pay them accordingly.

Plain and simple.

It seems to me that Los Lobos' management really let them down in this situation. If Paul Simon was intending on paying them for ideas and not giving any songwriting credit this should have been made clear to everyone.

I agree.

For a band to enter the studio and be unclear as to whether they're there as studio musicians (non-royalty performers) or as collaborators (royalty performers) shouldn't happen in this day and age, particularly if it became clear that what Simon was bringing in wasn't anywhere near finished.

[balogna pogna]

And I feel bad for Los Lobos, but if you knew Paul Simon was struggling for new musical ideas why would you start jamming one of your unreleased songs? I guess they just assumed he would be honourable.

Hopefully Paul Simon see's our little discussion here and chimes in with his version of the story. His people have probably advised him of the Los Lobos interview.

[Tricky]

very interesting way of only using a portion of my quote. The idea behind what I said was that if Paul Simon ripped of people, it truly makes no difference to me, and my worries of life don't really concern what he does or does not do. I also go on to say that if I was him, I would do the right thing...and we really don't know even half of the true story...still just gossip propagated by the media, courts, Paul Simon, and all other parties...there are many sides to a story, and the courts are place to trust an outcome..O.J?